Thoughts on community fragmentation and the harm of the "no drama" mentallity.

[Ember]

Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley


Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around  exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.

The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm.  In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.

On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need  dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.

Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."

Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...

When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.

And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.


In short, the points I would like to make are the following.

1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.

[Runix]

I myself can agree with this  :thumbs:

Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.

iv seen places with communities with divided areas (only because of colleges and universities) who still get together every monday or friday, it would be nice to believe in our own community again and see those people set aside thier own differences with others.

Drama should not be out in the open during events, if you have a problem with someone please confront them at your own leisure.

If everyone can get along for at least 1 time a month and come together again as a proper and supporting community then maybe theres a chance trust will be gained by even the newcomers. I know i can be a bit bold myself, but i try and make good points, most of you just end up misunderstanding what i say or take it the wrong way, its not like i myself mean it that way.

My first furmeet was new years of 2007, i still have good memories of the time i came into this community, it was welcoming, happy, and all around energetic. but since time has passed that community started to crumble and even now its hard to believe we used to be friends to all, new or old.

im just going to say " What Happened guys?, Why are we all being this way to one another, we used to care for everyone and always had welcoming arms."

[Maoi Neko]

You realize you are both saying different things, right?

[Silvermink]

Well said, Ember - couldn't agree more. I personally have a lot of problems with the "drama" label in that I feel it's often used as some kind of instant, no-comebacks-allowed smackdown on any even-vaguely-unpleasant or even-vaguely-confrontational interpersonal stuff. You know what? Sometimes that stuff needs to be hashed out. Stigmatizing it just ensures things will fester rather than being dealt with.

I'm not wild about the Everyone Must Be Unconditionally Accepted mentality either, which I think breeds a lot of resentment between people. We choose who we hang out with in other contexts; why not here? Many furries are so used to having been outsiders that they seem to feel that rejecting anyone for any reason is some kind of betrayal of the sacred trust.

[Ember]

Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.

With respect, I think you need another read through, this is the opposite of what I am saying.

[Ember]

Well said, Ember - couldn't agree more. I personally have a lot of problems with the "drama" label in that I feel it's often used as some kind of instant, no-comebacks-allowed smackdown on any even-vaguely-unpleasant or even-vaguely-confrontational interpersonal stuff. You know what? Sometimes that stuff needs to be hashed out. Stigmatizing it just ensures things will fester rather than being dealt with.

I'm not wild about the Everyone Must Be Unconditionally Accepted mentality either, which I think breeds a lot of resentment between people. We choose who we hang out with in other contexts; why not here? Many furries are so used to having been outsiders that they seem to feel that rejecting anyone for any reason is some kind of betrayal of the sacred trust.

Thank you, Silvermink.

The topic of closed invite events has tended to raise a certain level of conflict before. While living at the old doghouse, we had any number of closed invite get togethers. These were met with a level of disdain from the community at large. "How dare they," they would ask, "How dare they be selective with the people they invite into their own home!"

While I will acknowledge that it feels terrible to be left out, the mentality behind a person chastising us for not letting any person that felt like it show up to our house was something I never really understood. It's more or less the reason no one knows were the new doghouse is now ;)

[Silvermink]

Thank you, Silvermink.

The topic of closed invite events has tended to raise a certain level of conflict before. While living at the old doghouse, we had any number of closed invite get togethers. These were met with a level of disdain from the community at large. "How dare they," they would ask, "How dare they be selective with the people they invite into their own home!"

While I will acknowledge that it feels terrible to be left out, the mentality behind a person chastising us for not letting any person that felt like it show up to our house was something I never really understood. It's more or less the reason no one knows were the new doghouse is now ;)

Again, I completely agree. I think part of the problem is that often any event which involves some subset of the people in the Vancouver furry group is automatically seen as a "Vancouver furry group event". Sometimes people just want to get together with their friends in smaller groups, and there's not a damned thing wrong with that.

To suggest that people have to invite the entire group any time they want to socialize with others who also happen to be members of that group is ludicrous, and to pitch a fit because someone chooses to exercise control over who they invite into their home is just asinine.

I think part of the problem is that the all-inclusive-at-any-cost attitude has been tolerated for so long in furry groups and more general "geeky" groups that people have started to think it's acceptable, and it ain't.

I linked to this article from my LJ a few years back and it's still a really good read: Five Geek Social Fallacies

[Runix]

Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.

With respect, I think you need another read through, this is the opposite of what I am saying.

as im allowed to post my own opinions, this isnt a democracy.

[Acco]

Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley


Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around  exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.

The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm.  In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.

On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need  dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.

Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."

Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...

When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.

And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.


In short, the points I would like to make are the following.

1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.

+1. Granted, large events being thrown every so often provide an easy way to get to know the community for newcomers... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, hell, I'd wager a good deal of us were introduced through some sort of group furry gathering. But, I also like small social groups (being able to hear oneself think, heaven forbid!) that I can curate and vet to my heart's desire.

Two points that I'd certainly raise:
1) We [I + random person] don't have to hang because we're furry (as the community "suggests" at times). Hell, I'd probably kill myself if that's all I was into.
2) (Which really is an extension of 1...) I am much more interested in talking about random stuff than talking about the newest piece of Zen/Adam Wan/[insert famous furry artist here] porn. :)

[Sikkab]

But there is no new Zen or Adam Wan art. :<

Well, Zen has been submitting a few things, but not a whole lot.

[Silvermink]

as im allowed to post my own opinions, this isnt a democracy.

Well, sure - but your post suggested you were agreeing with Ember, so I don't think it was unreasonable for him to point out that that wasn't what he was saying. He didn't say you weren't allowed to add your two cents.

[Roffo]

I read everything you said there in your post, Ember. I understand and agree on practically everything that you are saying. I assume that it is safe to say that the majority of individuals who define themselves as 'furry' are/were unaccepted by those who are non-furry.

Maybe furries should be open about our social issues and express them along healthy terms?  Mature individuals are probably only capable of having healthy discussions about such problems. However, I wonder how many furries are actually mature?

[Cross]

that all sounds fair and good, but what is anybody actually going to do about it?

[Ember]

Do about what?

[Silvermink]

that all sounds fair and good, but what is anybody actually going to do about it?

I think it requires people to adjust their attitudes, which I don't think is something that can be achieved through the actions of any one person. But I, for one, will happily discuss this until I'm blue in the face if it'll convince people that the no-drama and accept-everyone-unconditionally approaches are unhealthy.