Thoughts on community fragmentation and the harm of the "no drama" mentallity.

[z00p]

Yeah, I do prefer the mosaic ideal rather than the mixing pot.  If everybody's the same... would be pretty boring.  Plus.. I love drama!  *brings out his popcorn*

[Riot Da Woof!]

Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley


Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around  exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.

The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm.  In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.

On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need  dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.

Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."

Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...

When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.

And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.


In short, the points I would like to make are the following.

1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.

Tl;dr.
BUT, taking upon up on your main points:
2) I completely agree. While Drama is not necessarily what is called for, warning an individual about unacceptable behavior is. With unacceptable behavior meaning "Deviant to society", and in our case, the furry community, we have a major dilemma.Unfortunately, what remains deviant is almost completely relative and what can be seen as negative by certain groups of people, may not for others. If these individuals don't know what they're doing is deviant, they need to be made aware, through use of drama, or by private means. which would bring us to the next point.

1) Fragmentation is not only natural and ideal, but necessary. With a community as large as the furry fandom, we need some degree of separation. We're not all going to get along, sooner we know this the sooner we can get passed it. while we can all still remain "furry" in the grand scheme of things, we can, and should choose who we associate ourselves with. We could open the can of worms and bring up the Zoo and Furry debate. I choose not to be associated with this particular group, ergo, I choose to avoid that subject. In General population we see fragmentation all the time.

High school Analogy time
In High-School We have: Jocks, Preps, Goth/emo, Nerds and countless other sub-groups.
as diverse as they are they all share on commonality, There all Students.
The students that don't get along separate themselves to AVOID drama.
While this doesn't support comradeship or unity, It still works for the most part.

Why should the furry community be any different? if we don't like something why should we keep our mouths shut?
Maybe I'm Jaded, Maybe I'm Immature.
My post isn't meant to start shit or even to be discussed,
Just my two cents. 

[Acco]

i suppose this thread is funny, it has points yes, but is anyone in the right place to actually judge others?

Everybody judges. No such thing as not judging. We choose who to associate based on these judgments.

edit: removed "option" from Runix's quotebox.

[Silvermink]

Plus.. I love drama!  *brings out his popcorn*

Oh, yeah?! Well, you're a big stupidhead!

;)

It's hard to deny the "car accident factor" of a good Internet argument. I feel like I shouldn't stare, but it's hard to look away!

High school Analogy time
In High-School We have: Jocks, Preps, Goth/emo, Nerds and countless other sub-groups.
as diverse as they are they all share on commonality, There all Students.
The students that don't get along separate themselves to AVOID drama.
While this doesn't support comradeship or unity, It still works for the most part.

Hmm. Whether it supports "comradeship or unity" really depends on how you want to define those terms. I'd argue that it does support comradeship, because it's easier to feel comradeship with a smaller group of people who are more like you on average than a larger group of people who are less so.

Unity - again, depends on whether you want to talk about intra-group unity or inter-group unity. That kind of fragmentation leads to a fair bit of unity within groups, but obviously it can also lead to an "us and them" attitude between groups, and usually does in a high school context where most people are still finding their footing socially.

Everybody judges. No such thing as not judging. We choose who to associate based on these judgments.

Indeed.

[Daryll]

There is not much else I can say to this, aside from "I agree". It is also hard to sound philosophical from a cellphone on such a topic.

But, from my own experience, I come from a small community. There are a lot more blurred lines when it comes to acceptance among different social groups, as there were less people to contend with. But, you knew immediatly who was ostracized. Their actions were not tolerated, unless they were willing to change. And if they showed up at a social place, there would be resentment shown to them, along with a tense kindness.

But, nothing direct would be said, to make things more non-confrontational for everyone.

At the few gatherings I have been to, I have seen leaders show some strength in telling people what and what not to do, but were quite lenient, much like I am used to seeing.

Does some of the "no drama" concept come from people being unable to re-enforce what is accepted and not accepted?

[Selkit]

The "No drama" unwritten rule is the sole cause of why I attend very, very few furry events. I am not permitted by that 'rule' to tell someone I am not interested in contact with them, without skirting around the issue, nor am I allowed to show the kind of disdain I really honestly want to, for 90% of "furry" behaviors. Perhaps this is a fault of the age gap between myself and the next wave (27 may not seem like a huge gap against say, 18, but I remember having a rotary telephone, pre-internet life, and I'm heterosexually married among predominantly younger, bisexual or homosexual males who often ooze sexual frustration). I find a large portion of the community's behavior somewhat disturbing, and I will admit, I make a predjudiced choice not to associate with the individuals who are consistently unemployed, refusing to help themselves, and otherwise floating derelict in society or on a parent, or wallowing for months in self-imposed depression; The urge to berate them or otherwise chastise them in any fashion is too strong. Same goes for overt expressions of sexuality in a public venue, extreme state of dress (I wear stainless steel on my coat; My standards of extreme are higher than most, and yet, some furries at conventions manage to disturb even me by my standards), or other highly awkward behavior.

Call me chauvinistic, or bigoted, or really, any number of possible labels, but the spectrum of behavior I am willing to put up with is relatively narrow compared to the fandom's expectation of unconditional acceptance. I choose not to attend larger, uncontrolled events because I intensely dislike being cornered by something that I cannot speak out against, only avoid. I do not go to events where I expect that I will have to sequester myself into a corner for peace's sakes. If you see fit and find fault with the fragmentation of the community, do host large, all-inclusive events; There is absolutely nothing stopping you from trying. But it's actually quite rude to expect other people, to adapt their private gatherings for your sakes; Would you expect to attend a Protestant church, then request communion, or visit a classy club, then be upset and demanding when you're denied for not fitting dress-code?

[z00p]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I kinda like the cut of your jib

[Roffo]

I find a large portion of the community's behavior somewhat disturbing, and I will admit, I make a predjudiced choice not to associate with the individuals who are consistently unemployed, refusing to help themselves, and otherwise floating derelict in society or on a parent, or wallowing for months in self-imposed depression; The urge to berate them or otherwise chastise them in any fashion is too strong. Same goes for overt expressions of sexuality in a public venue.

Why do I see a trend here? There are too many furries without homes. Too many furries without job's. A lot of furries I know have low self-esteem (I could even say that I do too). So I totally agree with your post, Selkit. At the same time, I also agree that we are "prejudice" to those who don't have the priorities of sustainable living conditions. It is always nice to help those who are in need of some hosptiality; however, those individuals who are without homes should put as much effort as they can as possible to get back onto their feet. If that doesn't happen than those furries become dependent on other furs that do have jobs and homes.

[Zythren]

Haha oh this thread.
This is fun to read.

[Astraithious]

Too lazy to read most of it, The gist of it was  i think. Whaa some people wont invite us to meets. Isn't like furry just a hobby? Who cares lol. Go chill out with your friends and have fun, if people want cliques then so be it. They are in every form of society. Still though its funny how much drama there is in the furry community, delicious  O0

[Skitkat]

Uhm... I wonder if you guys would like the opinion of a brand new fur?

A lot of what you guys are saying is very encouraging for me. The fact that you can have a conversation about fragmentation - and, to me, more importantly, your feelings about the direction your community is taking - is, in itself, very healthy.

I've noticed that a lot of the older furs... Well, really, a number of the furs that have been around for a few years, have this feeling that the furry fandom "isn't what it used to be". I want to address one tiny facet of this issue and say that you are still a warm and attractive community, no matter how much drama your fellow furs start. I haven't had the opportunity to meet with any furs on any kind of regular basis, having relied so far on Howloween, so I don't have a perfect or "whole" view or understanding of this new community... But honestly, I'm excited to be a part of it. Sure, I've seen the drama (Though I'm sure many of you would say I haven't seen nothin' yet), and I've seen the troublemakers cause trouble and make people uncomfortable. But this is just one part of who you are. I would hate to think that you guys have failed to see what you're doing for eachother. You've provided a community that genuinely cares for itself. No matter how much any of us want the spotlight. :3

I guess I should get back on track, though... Ultimately, I think I agree with both Ember and Silvermink. There's a place for drama, and, of course, for dealing with it... But I don't think this should be a factor in large meet vs. small meet. If we're truly a community, and we're truly in this together, we must make the time for settling our differences.

For the purposes of tl;dr...

MY POINT IS THAT THINGS MIGHT NOT BE AS BAD AS YOU THINK.

[Selkit]

For the purposes of tl;dr...

MY POINT IS THAT THINGS MIGHT NOT BE AS BAD AS YOU THINK.

You're entirely right in saying that, and on a side note, welcome! I'd hope at some point in time I'll see you at an event; your point's well-reasoned and refreshingly optimistic. The fandom for some of us is not what it was when we entered it; I was relatively young when I first joined the fandom, and back then it was a somewhat different culture for me. Now I've found myself gravitating somewhat to more reserved activities or smaller meets, among others who are happy to do so, yet still keep in touch with the remainder of the community through the forums or other venues. Unity is a pretty admirable goal, and honestly, I would like to see a larger event occur where it can truly be all-inclusive. Unfortunately, I am not sure how it can happen, and drama-free? Start with lobotomizing the attendees. Drama strange as it sounds, is a healthy thing; It's when there's silent, sullen people around not saying anything, that you really have to worry about when the other shoe will drop.                                                                                                                             

[Silvermink]

Does some of the "no drama" concept come from people being unable to re-enforce what is accepted and not accepted?

Yeah, I think you're on to something there - a lot of this comes from people being unwilling to be confrontational. It takes a certain amount of strength to be able to say to somebody, "The way you're behaving isn't acceptable here".

It's easier to just make the excuse that you "shouldn't create drama".

At the same time, I think things have to be approached with a certain amount of tact, but that's not the same thing as just letting people go hog wild until suddenly they're being ostracized by everyone and aren't sure why. That's not fair to anyone.

Also, well-said, Selkit, and I can totally relate. I'm 31 and often feel like there's a bit of a gulf there that a lot of people don't appreciate - certainly one I didn't appreciate myself when I was, say, 20. I don't think I would've wanted to hang out with my 20-year-old self. I'm not trying to be ageist, and there are certainly cool younger people I'm happy to hang out with, but by and large my chosen social circle is very different demographically.

More than that, some of the antics that go on among furries of just about any age leave me kind of quietly horrified, and I don't like putting myself in those situations.

Why do I see a trend here? There are too many furries without homes. Too many furries without job's. A lot of furries I know have low self-esteem (I could even say that I do too). So I totally agree with your post, Selkit. At the same time, I also agree that we are "prejudice" to those who don't have the priorities of sustainable living conditions. It is always nice to help those who are in need of some hosptiality; however, those individuals who are without homes should put as much effort as they can as possible to get back onto their feet. If that doesn't happen than those furries become dependent on other furs that do have jobs and homes.

Yeah, I've seen a few too many people develop that kind of dependency, and some who even revel in the fact that they can be dependent on others (none of those were local, thank God). I think there's a line between being helpful and facilitating learned helplessness that can be a little bit hard to see sometimes.

At this point in my life I wouldn't be willing to open my home to someone else, but if I were I think I'd state from the outset that it was a limited-time arrangement, that I'd expect the person to respect me and my property and take steps toward helping themselves, and that if they seemed to be slipping into a "mooch" state I wouldn't feel guilty about asking them to leave.

I've noticed that a lot of the older furs... Well, really, a number of the furs that have been around for a few years, have this feeling that the furry fandom "isn't what it used to be".

Things are never "what they used to be". It's just a matter of whether a person chooses to roll with it, work to change it, or just bitch about it. ;)

[Sikkab]

I think some of the newer furs should take a look at this thread and actually read every post.

The general jist of this thread from my half asleep mind at 5AM is that if you don't like someone, don't feel obligated to hang out with them. Don't make a big deal out of it, just be polite and move on. This isn't like a job where you HAVE to get a long with everyone. Just be yourself, and whoever doesn't like you for that clearly isn't worth hanging out with anyway. It's better to tell someone you don't like spending time with them then lie to them and fake having a good time. Nothing good can come from that. It's also a respect thing. Personally, I would hate for someone to withhold that information from me.

Smaller meets are a good thing in my eye, and they seem to work perfectly. The only one who should be able to decide who goes to them is the host(ess) themselves. Don't be butthurt when you don't get invited to a small event of just friends.

All in all, I think this topic should be further discussed. I've added my two cents, now it's your turn.  :-3

[kohl]

I've seen alot of skewed aspects of what people refer to "friends" as. If I've only met you a month ago, I'm not your friend. Our surface may show acknowledgements and support but you can get that shit everywhere. It seems everyone is so content to show huggles and cuddle that they forget to show actual respect. It makes me feel sick seeing someone being courteous to someone then as they turn away you can see the distain in written across there face. Makes me feel that everyone is trying to pull there own little game so they don't have to take a few bits of herrasment. Most furries say they want to be more like animals, well animals arn't nice. They fight and bicker on a daily baises. I've made some of my favorites friends through spilling blood and exchanging bruises. Constantly being nice damages you.