A Serious Problem and I need Your Input

[Star Wonder]

Admins feel free to move this to wherever it belongs as I am not sure of where to put this thread...

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The subject matter I am going to talk about is very serious. And I need some serious input. I am going to be expressing many things, and giving background information and some details of what happened. This is a very serious matter, and this was the very last option we had to handle things as all others were already done and executed with no success so far.

Theft

I have been hosting furmeets for over six years. I have been in charge of running The Pound both old and New. And a serious problem has occurred on our last meet last weekend. Something that should have never happened. I have tried diplomacy and messaged people privately and tried to find out what anyone knew, I tried to get the person that did it to come forward quietly. We are all seriously, seriously devastated that this would happen.

The situation? On Sunday we discovered that half the tip jar's money was gone. The tip jar is for donations towards the next furmeet. The donations go towards OTHER people. It goes towards food, the extra cost in utilities it costs to run Furmeets, the ridiculous amount of toilet paper people go through and tissues, drinks, extra events, and so on. People donate out of the goodness of their hearts because they want the furmeets. They want a safe place to hang. They want to meet new friends, chill with old ones, and to have a good time. I am utterly shocked and appalled someone would steal money from not just the house, but every single person that comes to the meets. I have -never- wanted it to be private or invite only. I have always wanted to be able to have my house open to anyone that needs it. I've had people come over to crash for the night because they can't drive safely for either sleep deprivation, or under the influence, and once for someone that was going to the states and it was more convenient for them to sleep over and leave early. I have had people come over whom were having problems at home, or were kicked out, and needed a helping hand. I have fed and housed people whenever I can, and often out of my own pocket. And I'm terrified to think I have to stop that just because one person at a furmeet decided to take half the tip jar's donations. And the donation jar was never even left unattended except when people were sleeping.

The point of this thread is to try and gauge to see what I should do. My roommates are not helping me with the decision to make it private, or shut down meets all together, or anything. So I have to spearhead this on my own. I have been sitting here for the past week pulling out my hair from the shock and disappointment at the entirety of it all. And the fact they refused to come forward was the worst. Because now, everyone who goes has to suffer. And that's not right. I still can't get over it, and thank you to those that are just as angry as I am. But I need your help and others on making a decision on how to handle it from here. Because in the six years, I've never had to deal with theft. I have always been careful with looking after things, and making sure it's not possible. But someone seriously went over the line.

Private meets are not what I want. What I want is for the person to come forward and admit what they did so we can all move on and other people don't suffer for their dumb decision. I don't care the reason for doing so. I don't care if the house gets back the money, I'll take the loss. I just want justice and to move on. And the only way to do that is to have that person come forward.

I had also messaged people at the furmeet if they had seen or heard anyone doing something they shouldn't, but have had only a few responses out of everyone. I cannot get a hold of a few of the ones that came other than asking people if they know or have associated with them before so I could get a hold of them. I would appreciate some help in tracking the ones I cannot get a hold of down.

And this is also exactly why I tell people they must register. I don't want to have to turn people away at the door because they didn't register. Because some new furs or some others don't have a BCF account and only find out through word of mouth or their friend is going so they go, they could come and go and I'd never know who they were. There was talk of a sign in sheet where people leave their name and number, so feedback on that option would be nice as well. I ask constantly for people to register or post that they are bringing a friend. I don't want it to turn into turning people away at the door without exception. I know many furs and have known them for years and often they don't register, but I don't worry because it's not like I cannot find them. But it would turn into a rule that would apply to everyone, even my own friends. No one should have to go through that.

Yes I am feeling a lot of emotions right now and I am typing through the ear, but since we may not get to the bottom of this, I need some serious feedback on what to do and how to handle it. And I don't know any single individual to ask for help and advice, so I am reaching out to the community for help.

So...
Would you support Furmeets being private?
Would you support invite-only Furmeets?
Would you support a sign in sheet at the house where a name, address and phone number are required?
Would you support turning away at the door even if someone traveled three hours just to get to a meet?
Do you have any other options to offer?
Do you have any experience with this situation and how to get closure?
Do you have any information to offer on the situation if you were one of those that were at the meet?
Do you think I should just shut down The Pound and stick to personal events?

I do not want a close-door policy. Everyone has the right to feel safe. Often the donations do not cover many costs and we pay out of our own pocket just so we can give something to the entire community. My roommates are awesome for supporting me on that and are willing to do that. There are some amazing people that make everything I do worth while, worth the cost, and worth all my time and effort. That's why I do it. And for those that need a safe place, for those that need support that others may not be able to give. Many people do not agree with me, some of my roomies included, that I think everyone deserves that. People get their chances, and yes some of them seriously blow it so bad they get banned from not just furmeets, but events and other things. But that is such a small handful, and some of them really only needed a slap in the face for them to turn around and become someone better. I have watched many people in the community do that. My heart is seriously broken because of this whole thing, and now I have to make some very serious decisions and I cannot make it on my own. You guys are my community, and friends, and family, and I value everyone's input.

I will ask one thing, that has happened already, don't ridicule me or my roommates and bring us down for being kind. Some people do not just shut the door. Your opinion is one thing, but what you say and how you say it turns something from an opinion, to being a close-minded, hurtful person to people that are only trying to do good. Those opinions are also not the ones I am asking for. So please refrain from doing as such and keep it to yourself, it would be very much appreciated.

And for those that take the time to read and/or reply, The Pound thanks you for your time and appreciates it very much.

Regards,
The Pound (Duster, Pharaoh, Star Wonder, SteamJones )

[Pharaoh]

i am in all support of the sign in sheet and the private invite, but there shouldn't be a reason to turn people away, we can just restrict where in the house that they are aloud to go, without a host. there shouldn't be a reason we cant keep the events and the pound going. theft should never be a reason. it effects the outcomes of future events and brings everything down.

also on an added note, the person that has done the deed last event has four days to come clean, nothing will be done no charges will be pressed we would like a reason why the deed was done and who it was that is all. if not i will suggest we enforce these rules if not more then to the max. so that it better protects our items in the house, and the items of our guests.

[Drake Wingfire]

While I cannot offer any absolute answer, and I do think its pretty cool that there were that many furs donating to help the events. I will say this one thing from personal experience.

Relying on donations as anything more than a "oh hey cool,this will help" supplement is a very risky game, I have been to multiple meets over the years hosted by different people who have all tried it with the hopes of covering the costs of snacks or space. Even with crowds of 20-30 its impossible to really get enough donations to make a serious dent in the out of pocket expenses. Every time I have seen it end in a similar fashion, people get frustrated, lots of costs don't get recouped or even eased that much, and the host(s) become disheartened because they start to feel used or upset with the local crowd for seeming stingy.

With the meets we have had on the island we eventually came up with our own way of dealing with this. We went the sort-of potluck route with meets, mind you this works better when you got more established regulars who don't mind pitching in $10-15 worth of snacks for the greater good. After a while it got to the point of the general crowd knowing "hey this guy has pop covered, so I should bring some chips or maybe other snacks" it saves the host(s) a bit of hassle and money cause then they don't have to go out of their way buying huge amounts of snacks. We never really officiated it either to tell ya the truth, it just happened because of a few of us started doing it, the fur meets here don't even get that huge.

If donations are proving too low and/or too risky an option, you could always try the general potluck route and see who can help provide some resources for the group. In the end its practically the same as cash donations cause you are being spared the excess cash expenses that you would be otherwise shelling out. Im sure it could work with all the furs you guys have out there.

[Cassiden]

The sign in sheet sounds good as it can be used as a to track down who was there or not along with some sort of contact info.

The potluck idea thing that Drake mentioned could prove to be a good idea, and maybe have it so someone has to bring something or donate before they can join the nights events?

[Duster]

My mind is kind of frazzled from exhaustion at the moment so bare with me for a moment.

I might not have been showing it the past week but I am rather annoyed at this turn of events as well. Namely because of what these events have done for me personally over the past half year (get me drunk and I might tell you if I don't pass out first, this dragon likes his beer) among other things. If it does come to the point of having to turn people away at the door then that has to be done; but the registration sheet with names and numbers would help I feel. Also having some areas locked down with out a host is just a good rule to go by anyways.

Another that I have suggested to you Star is, as a final thing, is to have a locked cash box for tips rather than a jar. Though that is something that I would rather not see happen, like shutting the meets down due to one person's stupidity and greed.

I hope and feel that it wouldn't come to either of those points and that those involved will step forward to take charge of the matter. I would also like to thank those that have come forward to help in this, we all owe you a hug (or in my case a hand shake) for what you have done.

Now off to bed for me (sleepy dragon is sleepy as hell so yeah, also makes me more likely to say (type?) things like that) and I hope this matter is resolved soon.

Duster

[Star Wonder]

While I cannot offer any absolute answer, and I do think its pretty cool that there were that many furs donating to help the events. I will say this one thing from personal experience.

Relying on donations as anything more than a "oh hey cool,this will help" supplement is a very risky game, I have been to multiple meets over the years hosted by different people who have all tried it with the hopes of covering the costs of snacks or space. Even with crowds of 20-30 its impossible to really get enough donations to make a serious dent in the out of pocket expenses. Every time I have seen it end in a similar fashion, people get frustrated, lots of costs don't get recouped or even eased that much, and the host(s) become disheartened because they start to feel used or upset with the local crowd for seeming stingy.

With the meets we have had on the island we eventually came up with our own way of dealing with this. We went the sort-of potluck route with meets, mind you this works better when you got more established regulars who don't mind pitching in $10-15 worth of snacks for the greater good. After a while it got to the point of the general crowd knowing "hey this guy has pop covered, so I should bring some chips or maybe other snacks" it saves the host(s) a bit of hassle and money cause then they don't have to go out of their way buying huge amounts of snacks. We never really officiated it either to tell ya the truth, it just happened because of a few of us started doing it, the fur meets here don't even get that huge.

If donations are proving too low and/or too risky an option, you could always try the general potluck route and see who can help provide some resources for the group. In the end its practically the same as cash donations cause you are being spared the excess cash expenses that you would be otherwise shelling out. Im sure it could work with all the furs you guys have out there.

I appreciate you input Drake, it's not about cost. In fact, most of the time, especially when I first started, donations maybe would cover a tiny bit of it. I have tried potlucks, and it ends in a really bad mess. Only two people after one of them stayed to help clean. It took us six hours, and we got to find food stuffed under the couch, and someone had put a pillow on top of someone's lasagna that flipped over on the carpet to cover it and hide it. It's pretty much why I don't ask people to bring home-cooked food. Chips are easier and faster to clean, and won't cost me a damage deposit or the cost of a steam cleaner. Even meat and veggie platters are not a problem.

I know you might not know any background on the things I have done, and hosted, so I take that into consideration, and I really do appreciate the time you took to offer some help. It means a lot to me that you would do that, regardless of what I've already done or not.

Unfortunately, I don't have a consistent, steady flow of the same people coming to the meet that aren't too poor to donate food and what not. Often those that cannot afford to help out will stay and clean. If it was about the cost, I would have made it by donation only, but again that's another closed-door thing and I do not want to go that path. It's not about cost at this point. It's about principle, justice, fairness, and where to go from here.

Many times when I try and rely on people to bring things they have said they would, often times they don't, or they forget. I've in fact twice had furmeets where it was bring food for a donation and  had assigned people to bring certain items or people volunteered. For one of them only one single meat platter was brought, and two boxes of moutain dew that were drunk by the same person and he did not want to share. And 37 people showed up. I had my bf at the time run out and picked up some things for everyone, and asked for people to pitch in, and only 4 people donated a few dollars. It was a nightmare. The other time was even worse. I have had guidance from The Dog House, and I have taken some pointers from Gizmo's potlucks, I have integrated and tried many things, but the worst was to assign or people volunteer to bring things especially home cooked foods.

The whole idea is to provide a place for everyone, even the poorest people, and in the end everyone pitches in in one way or another. Those that could afford it would donate, those that could not would help out in some other way. There are several people that are always willing to help out after the meets. Like Choco, he rarely misses any meets, and he cleans up, he's donated sometimes when he can, even a few quarters is a lot for him but he will drop some in the jar. It's not easy for people to get to go to an event that is low cost, or even free, and just requires a tiny bit of their time. 99% of the time people clean up after themselves, or right when I ask or another person asks. Most of my regulars are poor, don't have jobs, or live at home, or many many other things. I don't do it for money, as not a single penny actually goes to any one person in the house. It goes towards things for other people. Yes, I get a bit upset sometimes when we have a furmeet and only a looney was donated, but often the next furmeet can make up the cost because people realize "hey, there's not a lot of food or drink this time. Why?" And then things turn around and people understand that donations keep things going. I've had people come and refuse drink or food because they cannot donate.

Unfortunately relying  on others to bring food is a constant failure. People like to also bring food only they like, such as one person brought turtle jello once and thought everyone would eat it. Not so much. They ended up eating some, and then left it in my fridge.

And even with hassle and what not, hassle 90% of the people I know would say "fuck it", I still want to keep things going. It's worth it. And again, in the past 6+ years of hosting furmeets, events, parties, and functions, this was the first theft. And it's not about the fact money was stolen, it could have been someone's personal belongings, it could have been anything, it doesn't matter, it was theft.

My furmeets have gotten as big as 76 people and can be as few as 1 or 2 people (not including hosts). This last furmeet we had 16, the one before we had 8. Who knows, the next one could be 2 or 20. This makes it really impossible to assign people things or get people to bring things. I asked for toilet paper one time and paper towels, and paper plates on a list of things still needed. The only thing that was covered was a single six pack of pop. Once people register for the furmeet, they never check back or they don't even read anything. Or they hear their friend is going and just show up instead of either getting their friend to let us know another person is coming, or getting registered or anything like that. It's so easy to get a hold of any one of the hosts. Especially if you know one of the people that's going.

Again, I thank you for your time and input Drake, I appreciate it. I wish that donations and cost was the problem, it would be easier to solve, but unfortunately it's about theft and how to proceed from here. I've been up one side and down the other with problems, gaining experience, but this was the worst. And because of it, I have to address it to make sure people feel safe coming to the meets. I do tell people to leave anything of value at home, but people do bring their computers, electronics, and so on. While it is at their own risk, I would be devastated even more to find out that someone was doing that. It's also why when it's dinner time and everyone goes to the restaurant, I stay behind and I never leave the house empty or I never leave another fur alone.

I go through all the hoops I can to make sure this doesn't happen. And for someone to do such a thing, especially if it was during the night when everyone is asleep, is so low that even I would probably punch them in the face. My partner himself wants to press charges if the person doesn't come forward. He is a lawyer and super scary even to me and I don't want that happening. And I don't even want him thinking like that at all. I just want someone to come forward, admit what they did, and face the consequences like a real man should.

I make due with what I can. I myself am extremely poor, and appreciate when my roomies help me out if they choose to when it comes to getting things for the meet. Most of the time people are nice, help out, and everything like that.

Again, thank you for taking the time to offer some tips. I know they work for others, and I hope they continue to do so. I appreciate the time you took to share your experience. <3

[Star Wonder]

The sign in sheet sounds good as it can be used as a to track down who was there or not along with some sort of contact info.

The potluck idea thing that Drake mentioned could prove to be a good idea, and maybe have it so someone has to bring something or donate before they can join the nights events?

The problem with that sweetie is most people that come to my meets cannot donate. Many are struggling, and I really only want to ask for donations from those that can afford it and do not want it to ever be mandatory. I also addressed the pot luck thing below.

[Sairys]

I have to vote towards invite sorta of meets, that way you can keep track of whos coming or going. I know it would interfere with introducing new furs to the general community but it would reduce the risk of thefts etc. give each fur thats been invited a plus 1. that way theres always a influx of new blood to the meets still happens but undercontrol(no creepers). also the person that brings a plus 1 person is then responsible for that person. anyone that wants an invite can always contact you.

I personally prefer open meets but I think our community has grown too big and fast to continue on that path imo, other fur-houses have opped to go invite-only and from what Ive seen its reduced major issues that occurred. 

The sign it sheet isnt a good idea since people will forget or dont sign the sheet unless you have someone or yourself basically standing at the door having people sign the sheet. The part of a meet is for the host to have a good time as well and not do a job, especially getting furs to sign a sheet.

[Drake Wingfire]

Hey no worries, was only a thought on what might help. But I do see your point with it being a rather large alternating crowd that would be hard to really get a routine like that going.

Seems many folk are keen on the sign-in sheet idea, but I am curious how this would work, especially with a larger crowd? Getting people to sign in would be a task in itself, but what steps could be taken if someone did steal again. Just a universal mail out list to see if anyone noticed someone committing the act?

Though I do like Dusters idea about some form of lock box for donations, that and a sign in sheet might help, so long as both are decently enforced and presented as a safety measure.

[zadow sunfire]

Just reading the thread and not all the comments the only advice I can give is to hide the jar at night and check on it every once in a while

[Ember]

Theft was a problem we ran into quite frequently at the dog house. I personally had iPods knives money beer etc etc etc swiped from my room, and I know I'm not the only person in that household that had that experience. Funny how that only really happened at the open invite stuff.

Furs from the general population are for the most part good people but there's some absolute shitbags in this fandom.

Leaving the tip jar out overnight was very trusting of you but not the best idea in these situations.

The most you can control on night like this is the people who are inside your own bedroom, and in there is where valuables should be carefully hidden.

There's honestly not really a whole lot you can do about this when you're inviting strangers into your house. You either kind of have to make peace with sometimes shit people showing up or go closed invite like all the other already well burned furs have done.


To those playing along at home, this sort of shit is why people think that there's nothing going on in the local fandom. There's a lot going on but random furs just aren't told about it.

That said I think that it's really cool that SOMEONE is still hosting events for the new/unestablished people to go to. It's just a shame that some are taking advantage of that.

[Flint]

Ry told me this happened since I didn't attend... It truly sucks when something is stupid enough to steal from a donation jar!

Maybe you should think about getting something with a lock and key? With a slot to put change and bills in! Would definitely stop the problem.

I think the sign in sheet is an okay idea.. Though having to give out your address and phone number is a bit much.. Maybe name and email?

Making the events private is always good! Or making the people that would like to come pm you first to ask permission to attend! The only problem I could see is less people would come, but it could be a good thing so things don't get TOO rowdy! Haha!

I really hope you do have one next month! Would love to come to at least one! ^^

Also, hope you find the fucker that snatched the money! Make the bugger pay! >:3

[Ro Ro Ro]

Sorry to hear that that kind of thing would take place at these events. They sound like a really fun time other than the blatant stealing of property. I do have some input that might help for the future.

The first problem I see would be the tip jar itself. As other people suggested, find something that you can lock the jar with so no sneaky little paws get in it. If you are having these furmeets regularly, it might be worth the investment in the long run. Then there's the chance someone walks off with the whole jar. There are ways to secure it to something. A bolted chain on a lock would work wonders for not having the same thing happen again. I highly recommend this because it will not only be effective, but it will also give you peace of mind for the next event.

However, as you noted, there are other ways to keep the shady individuals away from your belongings. On the list, you proposed that you could make these events more private with an invite only restriction or turning away unregistered guests. Based upon your first post, you are hesitant to do this one and I agree. I feel it goes against the spirit of the furmeet when you take away the ability to meet new people. Remember, there are always more kind and interesting people in the world than scum that steal. We just always remember the scum.

From here I'm just spitballing some ideas that might work better for you.

With the sign up sheet idea. I know it can work. I've had events using a sign up sheet work great. We were even able to contact someone who left their phone because of it. However, the sign up sheet might change the structure of what your regular furmeets would be. In order to make it work, you first would want an entrance hall that is sorta away from where the main party is happening. This is important, because people can get caught up in the party the moment the door opens so easily. Having the entrance clear will allow them to take the time to sign the sheet instead of walking right past it without ever seeing it. The clear entrance also allows the residents of The Pound to welcome everyone that comes properly, and instruct them to fill out the sign up sheet. I've been to parties where the door is basically free for people to walk in and out, and the host might never see a portion of their guests.
Obviously this is not the kind of event where you'd have someone sitting at the entrance, letting people in, and greeting them, but for the resident who would keep having to stop what they are doing every time a new person knocks at the door, it would be a bit of an annoyance, and a change from how things would normally go. (unless you already do that)

Maybe the tip jar isn't right for hosting events that have people you don't know showing up. It might be better to ask that those who wish to donate give money to one of The Pound's residents. In a chaotic situation I could see this not working very well because money can be so easy to misplace and forget about if you are busy doing something else. I don't know how your furmeets go, though, so maybe the more personal exchange of money is the right fit for you. I've never tried this one or seen it done, so I wouldn't know how effective it would be. I can't be faulted for throwing ideas around though. :)

I plan on showing up to one of these eventually, so I would hate to see it gone or made invite only. I wish I could help you in finding the one that stole the money, but the best I can do is wish you luck in finding him/her.

I appreciate the service you guys at The Pound are doing for this community. Thanks.

-Ro3

[RainRat]

As a board administrator, this is mostly outside my jurisdiction. You event organizers can work out what rules you think you need. It's important for the health of the community to come to grips with the problem. I certainly don't want to get in the way of solving it, and brought up a related point here:
http://www.bcfurries.com/forum/index.php?topic=3341.msg103987#msg103987

[Crassadon]

Too bad I can't attend the Vancouver meets; they sound really crazy!