BC Furries Skype Chat: A Discussion on Rules.

[Kyroo]

Honestly doesn't really seem to matter if people voice concerns, you've seen enough examples of those who are concerned by your own admission, and you're going ahead with it anyway. So why ask?

[J.R.Bear]

Honestly doesn't really seem to matter if people voice concerns, you've seen enough examples of those who are concerned by your own admission, and you're going ahead with it anyway. So why ask?

Because it's a perfect representation of the way our society works. Those with power or authority only want to pretend that they are interested in what the populace wants. The reality is they have already decided what to do, they just want to placate the masses. Censorship is a plague, freedom of expression is a dying concept and people like this are the executioners. We don't need or want a net nanny deciding what is and is not said. The internet is an automatic 18+ place. If you are unable to handle mature subject matter then find a sesame street chat room to hang out it. It is not societies burden to shelter you from language or subject matter you are not emotionally or psychologically able to process. It's your responsibility to remove yourself from the situations you find uncomfortable. As well you cannot claim to be fighting for inclusiveness and at the same time promote segregation. If you really want to keep a 2 room system (and its clear that you are going to regardless of what any of us say) then it should be a separate room for the the people who can't stomach adult conversations. Those who need to have life filtered for them need to step up for a change instead of calling for internet mommy to come stroke their head and make all the scary words go away. I am an individual, I am not sheeple. You are not the Führer and I don't recognize your self imposed authority.

[Tef]

As a sociology minor, I would've wanted to suggest an analogy of Michel Foucault's panopticon regarding docile bodies, and how we are all in a sense regulated even without the presence of power or authority. Pardon me for demystifying this sense of self-agency, but truly there is none. To form an individual group of ones is to create an authority of one for one. Surely wouldn't the sense of "individualism" be a self-defeating statement unto itself? I don't believe in authority, nor do I believe in individualism. Because in both cases, they are social constructions to me, but I do know adequately on both sides to know when to sympathise and when not to.

Don't worry, Lament, I do sympathize with your concerns. There is an innate sense of order and authority in any milieu, and what you did in terms of bringing the sense of order to light was dutiful. The flak that you deserve, however "deal-with-it" it may be, seem to me more of a case of a sentimental act of shooting the messenger. In terms of how the situation was dealt, I'm afraid since I wasn't there, that's as much as I can offer.

[Tonk]

I don't need entertainment TV, there's always a new episode on the internets.  :popcorn:

This
:popcorn:

[JazzyLament]

(in here I respond to three people, Kyroo, KermodeJay, and Tef. I've highlighted your names in case you just want to read your responses)

Kyroo: It does matter, I created the previous 4 measures in response to your concerns as well as others.

You said that there were no written rules, therefore I stated I would make a post that would contain explicit rules explaining what each room is about and what restrictions would be imposed in the "Lounge Group" in the signup group.

Additionally, you stated that the naming of 18+ made it seems it's one for sexual rp and other things of Adult nature, therefore I proposed we change the names to "Lounge" and "Back Room".

I ask because I actually care, and I do try and offer solutions that would make people happy. I hope that you can come around and see that I'm managing this to the best of my abilities. If I didn't care, I would have just left it to be open, that's a much simpler and easier solution for me to do, it isn't however, the responsible one.

KermodeJay: In response to your concerns about being inclusive but promoting segregation, I think a little clarification is in order.

See, I think there is a little confusion as to how this works. Once somebody signs up, they are already invited to both the Lounge AND the Back Room, these are two groups that are separate from each other. Nobody is segregated, you can talk in the Lounge or you can talk in the Back Room, or both!

Additionally The people that feel that they ABSOLUTELY don't want to be censored can just leave the lounge and talk only in the Back Room, and those who don't want to be involve in the more free and loose conversation in the back room can leave it and only talk in the Lounge. Or if you're like me and don't really mind either way, you can keep both and chat wherever you like whenever you like! It's a very easy thing to manage really.

So basically, if you are even so adamant about it, it can be like the Back Room is the only chat that is available. And you won't ever have to bother with those people that are 'unable to handle mature subject matter'. But of course it would be YOUR choice to segregate yourself from them, not mine.

I hope that now that I've clarified the system you'll be more comfortable with the idea, please let me know if you have any more concerns, and we'll try and work it out okay?

Tef: *thumbs up*?

[J.R.Bear]

Additionally The people that feel that they ABSOLUTELY don't want to be censored can just leave the lounge and talk only in the Back Room, and those who don't want to be involve in the more free and loose conversation in the back room can leave it and only talk in the Lounge. Or if you're like me and don't really mind either way, you can keep both and chat wherever you like whenever you like! It's a very easy thing to manage really

It's not that I don't WANT to be censored. It's that I have the RIGHT not to be. At its inception the room was not established to be a PG room. Therefor it is inherently a 18+ place like everything on the internet. It is not right to change it after the fact. The complexity or lack there of of having to switch back and forth between chats is irrelevant. If you feel that you ABSOLUTELY need to be censored then create a new chat room that is established from the beginning to be PG.

[Pea]

There's a furry Skype chat?

[Kyroo]

Fine, you say you want to hear us? I'll contribute then.

I could care less about rules in a chatroom as I have previously stated. I brought up the rules only because the imaginary things were thrown at us.

KermodeJay is absolutely correct. This room has always been ruleless and it is tacitley implied to be a use at own discression area. For you to make the change to force the "back room" as you put it, *cough* back of bus, as a secondary or alternative option is not a very desirable solution considering its just lose-lose for the pro freedom of speech crowd. It literally says to us "you are wrong but here is a consolation prize to shut you up".

Counter proposal: bcfurries skype room remains in its current state, and we create a room called "can't handle the heat muffin?"

It doesn't sound nice when the roles are reversed does it? Nobody wants to be the "other room". And thats the wall youre running in to. Call it whatever you want, but thats whats getting under peoples skin. You have adked them to give up a place they (myself included) frequent and trade down for something less than they already had. All because you happened to be actually in the room one of the hundreds of times per month those discussions happen and chose this as a worthy battle.
The proof is in the fact that it took so long for this to happen. I bet you wont refute how often it goes on, because you know we have no reason to lie when we tell you its all-the-time.

Btw quit saying you invited everyone to both channels at the same time. Because we all got invited for the first time the other night. (We being the people involved that night) and not one of us had even heard of the "18+" room.

[Kyroo]

And I don't for one minute believe you don't care about the chat room. You would have taken the path of least resistance if that were true.

I do believe you feel like you are backed into a corner and are intent on defending your position at this point. I will echo Drake and say you are being a white knight. As noble as your intents are, nobody asked to be saved from the big red dragon.

[Tosca]

It's not that I don't WANT to be censored. It's that I have the RIGHT not to be. At its inception the room was not established to be a PG room. Therefor it is inherently a 18+ place like everything on the internet. It is not right to change it after the fact. The complexity or lack there of of having to switch back and forth between chats is irrelevant. If you feel that you ABSOLUTELY need to be censored then create a new chat room that is established from the beginning to be PG.

Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want. JazzyLament is taking the userbase's concerns into account, which is great, since they are under no obligation to in the first place. The fact that they're willing to work with users to find solutions the majority is happy with is a very good sign. (Also, there's no age requirement for using the internet. And people who prefer not to encounter highly explicit content in a presumably PG-13 chat are not in need of 'internet mommies', they simply have different preferences than you do.)

If it's really that hard to not use the disputed sort of language, people can take it to the back room. It's not causing any major inconvenience for them and it's not stifling their ability to be heard in any way, and it helps the people who just want a more relaxed chatroom to feel comfortable.

(Also, I wrote this before the last two replies. Don't have the energy to make this any longer at the moment.)

[Silvermink]

Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want.

Good lord, a thousand times this. The "right to free speech" is not something you get to use as a bludgeon in the context of a private space.

[Nibi]

Ugh, am I the only one who feels that this has been blown way out of proportion? I honestly thought the first page solved everything in this thread. xD

Anywho I'll also quote this because this is also how I feel, well said:

Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want.

If this was my Steam Group for Furries I would have not tolerated any of this at all and it's actually making me want to write some rules for it now. I never realized how crazy people could be about wanting to have "freedom of speech" in a group they were invited to that was created by someone else. I would have gave you one warning, made sure you fully understood what was expected and how you should behave and if you still went against everything I said, I would have kicked you. No ifs, ands or buts. I really have to admire you Lament for being so patient. xD;;; I couldn't do it.

[bloodredruby]

Alrighty then, I believe a few deep breaths and a couple of steps back are in order for all involved, here.

As someone who does not use the chat feature, might I offer a bit of unbiased perspective?

I believe that there are solid points on both sides of this argument, and that both sides fully believe in what they are saying. However, I think frustration and irritation are playing a major role in this conversation spiralling into a rather heated argument. Rather than fight and have to deal with the extra anger, let's try to find a reasonably satisfying solution. The end result may not be perfect for everyone, but hopefully it is satisfactory to the majority.

My personal thought would be this; tweak the existing groups slightly to better accomodate everyone. However, rather than turn the rooms into a kiddies room and an adult only room, why not make one room "Good Clean Fun" and the other "Everything else"? By doing it that way there is no age segregation, and each person is free to decide whether they want to chat in the clean room, or in the all purpose room.

Every person has moods where they just want to talk about serious, silly, mature, childrens (etc) things, and for those of us who have a hard time editing our language (of which I am very guilty), we'll just automatically choose the all purpose room. For those who are easily offended, or would just rather avoid rough language and topics of a sexual nature, they can choose to head to the clean one. No harm, no foul on either side of the road.

From a personal stand point, I enjoy a good conversation about dongs as much as the next person, but there are some times when I would just really love to talk seriously about what's happening in the world, or about a topic of sincere interest that is perhaps not suited to vulgarity or sarcasm.

Just my two cents.

[JazzyLament]

Firstly, Thank you Tosca, Silvermink, and Nibi for addressing that for me, it's something that I have had difficulty finding a way to put into perspective without sounding like a dictator a certain furs unfortunately seem to think I am...

sooooo back to Kyroo~

Kyroo: I believe most of your worries would be answered by the reply I made to KermodeJay, I would appreciate if you took the time to read through it, then came back and talked to me if you still have any issues.

But in summary, there is no superior or inferior group. Both groups existed at the same time, or to be accurate, the 18+ group was made probably about three weeks after the original group was made. The Back Room isn't to imply it's inferior, it's to imply it's private, like your own executive suite, with champagne and erotic dancers that everyone is welcome to enjoy and may freely enter and leave at their will. There is no "other room", that notion is of your own creation. I personally used the 18+ board more than the other one because I myself like having a little more freedom with my speech, I usually check in to the original one if there is an interesting conversation, so, no there isn't much role reversal when both are equal.

Yes you are correct, initially I did not invite people to both, only if they requested it, however this will change on Thursday and everyone will be made aware of the existence of.

I never asked you are your friends to give up their place. You are welcome to both so long as the rules in the one with them are respected. Again, please take note that I did not kick any of you from the group because I realized there was a misunderstanding.

Again, there's more on the dynamics of the two groups and how they work together in my reply to KermodeJay's comments, and I implore that you read them.

You seem to still be sour of the original incident, and I have tried to apologize for it, as it was largely due to my poor job in administrating and setting up the board, the reason we are having this discussion is to move beyond that and establish a better community, I hope you can see that and can help us build something better.

bloodredrul: Thank you very much for that, hopefully people will take the time to read your post as it has a very nice and unbiased logic that's easy to follow.

Also, your idea for a "Good Clean Fun" and "Everything else" is precisely the dynamic that I'm going for with my suggestion "BC Furries Lounge" and "BC Furries Back Room". I'm actually thinking perhaps we should put it to a vote so and see what names the community wants to call it since Kyroo seems to have an issue with any name I suggest XD

That could be fun even!

[Drake Wingfire]

I think the real fact of the matter is that when it comes to rules, there really is nothing solid, using Nibi's thoughts about that steam group as an example here. People can change rules on a whim and it really leaves such room for god-moding, especially if multiple people are left to be "mods" based on just being friends of said group owner. I have seen numerous groups and forums fall from that one issues right there. People start creating some base rules, then they get more uppity about WHO uses their group or WHAT they talk about in the group regardless of "maturity" or their attempts to claim such a label as their own. It just becomes a mess once you start really splitting hairs. I still feel one all encompassing group with a "viewer discretion" warning would be better than two groups ultimately, less chaos, less net nannying, and less mod-friends.

I honestly gotta still agree with the notion that the internet is by default adult in nature and it is the duty of the individual to stay away from what they do not like, I cannot simply waltz into some shock-sight and get all morally offended and start telling them to take down their sight because I happened to wander into it and I personally don't agree with it. In any conservation like that I would be told to bug off and quit being such a whiner. Its a tough fact of life that everyone is gonna have to swallow at some point, the world does not moderate or stop for just one person and their issues, its up to the individual to use common sense and go "hey.. I don't like these people/ what they are saying, I am just keeping clear of that because that's not my thing." If anything I see that as being more mature than taking some big dramatic pseudo moral stance about how we gotta cover up everything and protect people from reality.