BC Furries Skype Chat: A Discussion on Rules.

[JazzyLament]

Hello BCF,

A while ago I started the BC Furries Skype Chat which you may have heard of.
The original intention was to provide all BC Furs a friendly and receptive place where they could chat with other furs.

It was readily apparent that BC Furs are quite varied from one to another, and some found the overtly sexual dialogue and colorful language a little bit intimidating and would rather not participate. This coupled with the fact that we have users registered in the chat that are as young as 12 led me, with the advisement of other furs, to create the BC Furries 18+ chat, which would have no filtering, whereas the original BC Furry chat would 'motivate' users into more appropriate discussion and no explicit language.

Sadly...while this worked for a while, we had a few incidents tonight, largely attributed to my inadequacy as an administrator where such a balance has been broken. Certain users have voiced their concern that this censorship and segregation was a violation of their rights and as a result have chosen to ignore the rules that have been established (another issue brought up is that these so-called rules have not been exactly written down in anywhere, I've just been reminding people whenever I see activity that is not appropriate, again, this is also my fault). I have added these users to the 18+ board, but currently I have not kicked them out of the current BC Furries board, as their feelings were quite strong on the matter and some harsh criticisms were leveled at me, and I feel a discourse should be opened here on the forums, so all furs can have their voice on the matter at hand.

First, I would like to apologize here publicly and that I'm sincerely sorry for anyone who felt offended by the events that occurred as a result of my actions, I hope that those who still feel as if I have wronged them in some way will come to, in time, forgive me, and hopefully understand the reason for my actions.

Secondly, It is my hope that through such a discussion we could reach an accord where all members can feel included and avoid another incident from occurring. So from this post forward I would like to hear as a whole what the community would like from a Skype Chat. Keep in mind our goal here should be to accommodate EVERYONE. This includes those that are timid and are looking for just a place to talk and get to know people in a comfortable environment, and those that like using more colorful dialects to talk and fool around with their buddies. If you feel that is a silly compromise then please let me know as well and I won't ever bring up censorship in the chat again.

Alright then BCF, what are your thoughts?

[Nibi]

I just read through what happened. :-\

I have to say I'm very disappointed in some of you furs, the way you acted was very immature and thoughtless. _To me_ it seemed that Lament was being fair and not trying to be some "dictator" but was just reminding everybody of the purpose each group had.

It is VERY clear and straight forward what each groups purpose is to me:

BC Furries: Think about this as a place with a bunch of children around. You wouldn't swear frequently or talk about sexual innuendo's now would you? This should have a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable.

BC Furries 18+: This should be very obvious. Anything that involves anything sexual, gruesomely violent, anything with "adult content" should be discussed in this group.

Now, I don't see how hard it was to simply click on the other group when asked to switch. Most involved had a little temper tantrum of that a 4 year old child would try and pull to get their way. Honestly, you just go to your recent tab (or wherever else you may have it) and select "BC Furries 18+" and continue your perverse conversation there.

All this drama was really unnecessary. Don't blame yourself so much Lament, people just need to step up to the plate more and not be so stubborn/prideful. Being a "rebel" doesn't make things better or make you cool.

[Don]

BC Furries: Think about this as a place with a bunch of children around. You wouldn't swear frequently or talk about sexual innuendo's now would you? This should have a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable.

BC Furries 18+: This should be very obvious. Anything that involves anything sexual, gruesomely violent, anything with "adult content" should be discussed in this group.

This was my expectations, as well. The general BC Furries just for people who want to chat and have a good time. Cussing and other such garbage is unnecessary and unsightly.

[Drake Wingfire]

Nibi, there was no drama or issues till people decided to "white knight" it up and MAKE things an issue, no one was being a "Rebel" or trying to do any of that as some act of furry bravado as you might think. (if party (A) is just having fun and party (B) comes up and gets huffy about it, party (A) is just instantly cause drama?) I guess you skipped/ blocked out the part of that conversation where a particular individual took to just trying to mute people right off the word go and figured using a condescending tone was the way to "get through to people" instead of just having a level say about it. I still stand firmly by my words that being the people we are (furries) other furries just having a laugh and talking with a little mature language should not be met by threats of muting and banning and people just having mini break downs cause they can't handle any sort of conversation or emotion that isn't happy or just cuddle RPs, To me that seems far less mature and a bit socially stunted, same goes for people who take the opportunity to play "white knight" over such a trivial thing as others just having a fun conversation.

Now as for my take on the issue as a whole, if people really want to divide the local furry community by age and mentality, why not just go all the way with it instead of just trying to censor some "naughty" words and leave the other doors open? If mature and scary words are not allowed, or discussion about any such topic, then I would assume that there is also no talk permitted about Religion, Politics, Most news stories and if you want to go for a stretch.. Most peoples bad days at work. As these all can contain strong opinions or harsh situations which some people may be unable to handle on a social level. There is honestly stuff way worse out there than sex toys and pot, I am rather disappointed that topics as mild as that have people just losing their composure, there is just no rational need for that level of stigma.  :roll:

[Alloud]

Note I was not there when this happened but I just read through.

"Socks are like condoms, only good when you are shoving that apendage up someones ass"
I quoted this because this is what I believe Lament was initially referring to when he asked people to stop. This is not intelligent discussion. This does not belong in the non 18+ chat.

It is my understanding that everyone involved in the chat was also in the 18+ chat. It is not unreasonable to go have your fun there, as Lament suggested.

Instead people ganged up on him, backed him into a corner, and started exercising their "internet rights" or whatever. I haven't seen this crap since elementary school. Yes he did get frustrated by the end, but he handled things well; he could have just kicked everyone he thought was causing trouble, which is something I probably would have done.

This childish berating that followed was uncalled for, and I'm disappointed in those that took part in the "white knighting", saying things like "...its furs, does it matter?"
I thought we were trying not to propagate those stereotypes. What the hell happened?

All in all, a disappointing evening was had. There are 2 chats: One is for friendly, open discussion so long as it doesn't cross the boundaries of what you'd talk about with acquaintances at a public area. The second, 18+ chat is where you can talk about anything you want, dirty or otherwise. You can still swear from time to time in the first chat and no one will kill you, we just don't want it turning in to a bad rap song.

[Kyroo]

*Edited some of my smartass comments when I wrote this in a half-sleeping state.*

The bottom line is: There were no rules posted. This is the internet it is assumed to be 18+ with few exceptions: http://www.sesamestreet.org/  Even when your kid is on a site like that, you monitor them. The Internet is NOT A BABYSITTER.

You want to pull colourful examples of what we were talking about last night? go for it, there is no shortage, and I doubt any of the active 10+ people who were chatting last night would deny saying any of them. But if you're going to pull those examples, they go on every single night with different members all-the-time. The reality of what happened last night was a decently large group of us were chatting status queue and Lament came in swinging the admin hammer after possibly having a bad day at work or something, I dunno. I couldn't say what his mood honestly was, because since I joined the channel several months ago, I've never seen him on-line chatting in the room. Not to say that he isn't on alot, just that I literally never see the guy, and the first time I do he's muting people and handing out warnings and threats.

You spent a bunch of time chatting in private chat immediately following the public argument and the discussion immediately drifted away from the argument back to our topics that we were bantering about before, and the fun was continued for several hours following. Nobody left or complained before the person you attempted to mute logged off (2+ hours later). That tells me that nobody's ears burned off in the room and forced them to leave due to the shock and horror. All-in-all there was 1 person who didn't like the way things were going, and logged during the argument. But none did so after the fact.

So before you go and get on the sympathy train realize the facts:

1) There were arrows slung in both directions that neither party deserved quite frankly, so that's a bit of a wash. It probably seems more harsh coming at you when its from most of the room vs you alone. So I really am sorry if you felt anything was inappropriately directed at you. Please realize that we were all talking to Lament the admin, not Lament the person. And I am certain (at least very hopeful) that the same is true in reverse, that you were acting as an admin, not your personal feelings.

2)

...ignore the rules that have been established (another issue brought up is that these so-called rules have not been exactly written down in anywhere, I've just been reminding people whenever I see activity that is not appropriate, again, this is also my fault) -  JazzyLament

If it isn't written down, how is it established, and how do you expect people to know them?

3) The whole timid people argument is weak. You can't ask a room full of people in real life to not talk loudly or censor their comments and conversation so that a timid/shy person can enjoy themselves, the onus is on that person to observe those around them and learn the social norms and mores of the group and step forward to join in. The same is true (if not more-so) on the internet where they have complete anonymity and no real reason to be shy and socially awkward.

4) I see an 18+ furry room and immediately assume its RPing, not really my dig, but glad it's there for some people, I just like to shoot the shit with friends *shrug* sorry if our topic of choice drifts to things of a sexual nature. On top of which, last night was the first time I'd even heard of that room...You know this is true, because you invited me to join it mid argument.

5) As far as I see it, nothing has to change with regard to the channel, just leave things alone, it was going fine as you admittedly said. I assure you, we didn't just pop out of the woodwork we've all been on and among the most active members at night for months now. Since I joined, this has been the zeitgeist on the channel whenever I see it.

Kyroo

[Mikomi]

Well this is an unmitigated disaster.

At the end of the day, we all could have handled the situation better... But it seems to me everyone is missing the point of this forum. Its not about Who said what, who's right who's wrong. It seems like to me Lament is not trying to gather the troops so to say. Some people here have decided to to that course of action. However I think the real intention of this is somewhat of a sounding board. Crowd sourcing if you will, the outcome of what is and Isn't acceptable on the chat.

Also on a side note, as for there being 12 year olds in the chat, technically if there knowingly under 13. You require parental concent by law, if there is any identifiable information or for a web chat of the likes.

Now on to what i think the rules should be, I personally thing the only rule really needed is.
"If you wouldn't say it it public, dont say it here."


So everyone stop trying to turn this into a war... Especially if you where not there.

[Drake Wingfire]

Also on a side note, as for there being 12 year olds in the chat, technically if there knowingly under 13. You require parental concent by law, if there is any identifiable information or for a web chat of the likes.

Now on to what i think the rules should be, I personally thing the only rule really needed is.
"If you wouldn't say it it public, dont say it here."

I wanted to add a little to those two quoted points there. For the first one (and this is really addressed openly to everyone) given the nature of the fandom and how it actually is far from a little kids thing, (in all my 11 years I haven't see many who are THAT young) I see no need for two different chat groups, that's a recipe for elitism, it would be like creating a "wolves of BC" group, its just not a great idea from the start as I see it, It could all too easily lead to people getting egos over being "mature". Simply put, the fandom is no place for that kinda segregation. As for my having something constructive to say on the matter, I think it would have been easier rather than make two groups, make up this list of rules and then sit back trying to keep everyone on a leash, to instead just have one group and post some form of participant discretion warning pretty much like "Warning: This group contains users of all ages, there may be adult language and conversation, proceed at your own discretion." That way people have been warned and a lot of hassle is saved trying to monitor everything.

Now for the second point. (but more of a light hearted take, at least for me, on this one) Now I can't speak for everyone here, but I will say just about anything IRL (to comedic effect) I have no shame in many topics because I see no reason to have shame about them, if I wanted to feel shame about who I am or what entertains me I would have joined some sort of "conservative morals" club and gone back in the closet rather than being in the furry fandom, hell I wouldn't have even been in the fandom this long had that been how I tried to be.  :monocle:

[Zythren]

Sweet delicious drama. Mmm mmm :popcorn:

[Tef]

Sweet delicious drama. Mmm mmm :popcorn:

I don't need entertainment TV, there's always a new episode on the internets.  :popcorn:

[Drake Wingfire]

*old man voice* Back in my day when we had drama it was the real drama, none of this labeling everything that happens in the fandom as drama, we had emo kids threatening to leave the fandom due to a lack of cuddles and people jumping down stair cases at conventions because they were not popufur, those were the days *grumbles* Darn yungin furries these days think drama just falls outta trees! I blame their Justin beibers and their rap music and their Calls of Duty with them big flashy explosions *waves cane*

[JazzyLament]

*coughs* let's try and stay on topic yes?

First of all, before I say anything, I'm not going to pretend I'm unbiased in this, I'm heavily leaning to keeping a two channel system.

*deep breath* Okie dokie here we go.

So in response to Kyroo's point 2), about the rules not being written down. Yes I agree fully that those should have been written down perhaps in the same sign up board, like I said, in previous circumstances where I've warned people off the worst we got was a grumble and they soon hopped over to the 18+ channel and continued their conversation. This previous positive experience, along with Nibi, Alloud, and Don's acknowledgement that the system is quite simple to understand helps shift more weight towards including this dynamic along with an initial explanation of the rules in a new signup thread.

In response to 3), I argue against the fact that I can't ask ask a room full of people in 'real life' not to talk loudly or censor their comments. Various social locations have their own rules, and chat rooms are no different. As I previously stated, the goal is to include everyone, and anonymity certainly does not halt people from feeling shy or uncomfortable, especially in our chat since it's more likely for people to physical know one another.

Quick solution to concern number 4): We change the names of the the chat rooms to BC Furries Chat Lounge (This will be the one that will be moderated and users will be encouraged to create, as Nibi says "a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable) and BC Furries Chat Back Room, where anything goes.

In response to Drake's concern about 'elitism' coming about from the creation of two separate groups, I personally see this as a non-issue, considering the formerly 18+ chat has co-existed just fine for quite a while since the inception of the skype chat to begin with. I disagree that it would be like creating a "wolves of BC" group, because we are not excluding anyone. Think of it as two rooms, and you are free to walk in to whichever one you prefer, or even participate in both so long as respect the rules.

The advisory, while a good idea for a single chat room, still presents us with the problem that it excludes those who want a comfortable environment in which to chat casually with and get to know other furs. The hassle that comes with monitoring can also be avoided if (and while this seems possibly too optimistic) if everyone was on board with the idea of two channel system, and knowing that they have the freedom to express whatever thoughts they have in the "Back Room" will prevent them from purposefully disrupting the "Lounge" channel. The only reason where we would experience an issue is if someone purposefully was knowingly violating the rules and causing a scene, which if this is the case, they would simply be restricted to the "back room".

So in summary, here are the measures I propose we take, feel free to comment and let me know if there is something more any of you would like or anything you'd like to consider changed.

1.) Rename the Chat Rooms "BC Furries Chat Lounge" and "BC Furries Back Room"

2.) Explain on the sign up page that there are two rooms users may join, and they do not have to select one or the other, and give a clear explanation of what the content to expect/is expected of users within the two groups.

3.) Write out explicit and clear rules on the signup page for BC Furries Chat Lounge on what is considered appropriate and not appropriate behavior.

4.) Appoint 2 volunteer moderators to keep watch over the Lounge

Please let me know if this is acceptable, and if there is anything I have overlooked (as it is in fact currently 2:50 AM, so I apologize if I glazed over someone's voiced concern).

[Nibi]

Yes, those last two posts sounded good to me. :-3 Rules are definitely the way to go, since people will then have guidelines and know what is and isn't permitted.

(And light swearing was never an issue for me, swearing like a truck driver was more of what I was getting at. XDD )

[Morrogh TDO]

Honestly just going to say this. If you can't take it, leave. Let people to their devices. Plain and simple.

[JazzyLament]

I'm feeling like a broken record saying this :/

Yes, it's easier, but we are trying to be inclusive, it's good to provide options for people who would not be comfortable otherwise as evidenced in previous posts, and the inclusion of two rooms would do nothing to negatively impact people in the back room or lounge.

In fact you would get your wish. People who can't take the back room, leave. And leave those people to their own devices. Plain and simple.

I've spoken to a few people in private who have shown resistance to the two room dynamic and they feel, at the very least, accepting to the terms I've provided above. I've also received a few PM's from people saying they are content with this as well.

The only thing that might change is the inclusion of moderators. I much rather have self-governance and a few that I have discussed this with agree that is the best way so we don't privilege certain users over others.

I'm waiting until Thursday night to allow people to contact me and voice any concerns, and if all is well by that time I will take those steps.