Humans and Animals

[Coal Silvermuzzle]

There is a herd that live around my apartment. I love seeing them walk by my window. :)

Twitchy

Now that is the way it should be. Reminds me of the farm in NS.

[bloodredruby]

Ok, I already know that this post is probably going to ruffle a few feathers, but I feel I have to say this.

WARNING!! IMPENDING WALL OF TEXT.

I believe that the issues people are currently having with deer are man-made, however, I don't believe that sitting back and doing nothing is the answer. While I would love to say "let's co-exist", it really isn't a practical or optimal choice, for us OR the deer.

The reason that the instances of wildlife in urban centers is increasing is mostly due to the animals becoming accustomed to humans. Yeah, sure, if they hadn't been pushed out of their natural environment, they wouldn't be engaging in kickboxing with soccer moms, but that's not the main issue here.

Prey animals instinctively flee from predators, yes? Well, as humans, we are vicious, intelligent and efficient predators, and wildlife should fear that, and run when they see or scent us. However, they do not.

Why?

Because deer (and wildlife in general) that live close to or in areas populated by a decent number of humans have learned that we are not a threat. Meanwhile, they wander onto highways (getting killed and often causing accidents, some fatal) attack dogs, cats, and the occasional person, and become more and more fearless with each passing year. Do you know what the proper term is for a fearless prey animal?

Dinner.

There's a damn good reason for that, too. It ensures the survival of the best, the fastest, the strongest. The ones with the instinct to run from the possible threat survive to perpetuate the species, while the buck who stands on the redneck's lawn staring with mild interest down the barrel of a rusty old shotgun ends up on someone's wall.

I firmly believe that it would be best for the species, as well as for the people living in areas with deer problem, to put on their hats and go hunting. I have no personal moral objection to hunting, as long as it is done humanely and the animal carcass is fully utilized. Hunting the deer would force them to fear us once more, and to become more cautious, eventually making the local herds more apt to survive, and restoring them to a more natural state. As for the byproducts of hunting? In every community, there are people who are without homes, who don't get enough to eat, etc. Supply the local soup kitchen with fresh venison, and send the hides and the rest off to be processed.

I'm not saying that the entire population should be destroyed; that would be pointless. If there are no surviving deer to pass on a fear of humans, then the next batch will be just as clueless, and little more than canon fodder, so to speak. But I definitely think that the herd needs to be thinned.

One last thing; I believe that the worst thing a person can do when they see a wild animal (next to feeding them) is nothing. By just sitting back and observing them, we are blatantly showing them that we are not a threat. If you want to keep a wild animal alive and safe, scare the bejeebers out of it so that it won't come back. Then, hopefully, it'll be safe from the dangers of the human world and can live it's life where it wants to be, where it should be, and where it will be happiest.

In the wild.

[Chloe]

Ok, I already know that this post is probably going to ruffle a few feathers, but I feel I have to say this.
[/color]

No no no! Don't worry about it. That's why I started this topic in the first place. I wanted to hear things from both sides. :3

Now prepare for a rebuttal!

I completely agree that sitting back and doing nothing is not the answer, however, I don't believe that killing them is the only solution to this kind of problem.

Now, this is going to make me sound like a naturist, but quite frankly I feel that life is sacred and, given the opportunity, should be preserved. It's something that I think about more the older I get to the point where I can't even kill spiders now when I find them in my house. Instead I move them outside. From what I'm interpreting the argument you're making is that it is necessary for us as humans to thump our chests and prove that we are the most dangerous predator in order to keep deer out of our territory. To respond to the problem like a real predator would.

The argument I am about to make is that as sentient creatures its our right, if not our duty to find another way. Especially when it's a problem we started ourselves. I think the fact that we get to choose how we react to any given problem is what separates us from wild beasts.How would we do that? Well, I'm no expert on this subject so I'm sure someone could address this better then me, but I don't doubt for a second that we have the tools and resources too. I've heard of things such as repellents and other such things to keep local wildlife away.

What I can address is the matter of co-existing. You say co-existing is not practical or optimal for us or deer, (By the way I think living is pretty optimal on the deers side of things) suggesting it may be impossible. Well, we currently co-exist with dogs, cats, horses, and many other creatures that were once or even still are roaming wild in some places.

"That doesn't count, they're domestic now!"

Well that sure doesn't stop them from showing their wild side from time to time. There are plenty of reported attacks from, say, dogs everywhere. Dogs whom have never had any record of violence, and just attacked unprovoked. Some who have even attacked children. From what I know this usually leads to a dog getting put down, yet the general populace still doesn't second guess letting dogs co-exist with us. It's a risk we're clearly more then willing to  take. So why should it be any different for deer? Heck deer don't even hunt for meat, where some animals we live with do. I think with enough time anything can be accomplished.

Finally the place where a deer will be happiest is a place where it can find food and shelter. From what I understand, the reason they are driven out of their environment is because they can't find these things anymore. So I have to say I disagree that being in the wild just adds up to automatic happiness. Still maybe I'm wrong and co-existing isn't an option, but like I said before. If it isn't there has got to be another way.

Well anyways this is just my opinion on the matter. When it comes down to it, I don't think either of us is right or wrong. Thank you for sharing your opinion!

[EskapePeanut]

I love the deer that come though our yard. Well I love all the animals that do. I'm lucky though living up on a mountain where I get to see bears,cougars,deer,racoons,skunks,eagles and whatnot running around our yard and soaring around our home undisturbed. We put salt blocks for the deer and I really could care less if they ate all of my flowers.

For instance...I have bears in my yard for what feels like half the year, but I don't bother them so they don't bother me. The only thing I do is set up trail cams to film 'em doing silly things!
mr.bear
I really don't care much for these people who say these wild animals are encroaching on their land and residence. I always say that the animals were there first, not your condo or prized roses.  If you see a baby dear..leave it alone and you won't get attacked. Same thing goes with bears or any wild animal. They are wild and people forget that and then problems start...easy peasy.

[Sevrin]

Prey animals instinctively flee from predators, yes? Well, as humans, we are vicious, intelligent and efficient predators, and wildlife should fear that, and run when they see or scent us. However, they do not.
Do you know what the proper term is for a fearless prey animal?

Dinner.

There's a damn good reason for that, too. It ensures the survival of the best, the fastest, the strongest. The ones with the instinct to run from the possible threat survive to perpetuate the species, while the buck who stands on the redneck's lawn staring with mild interest down the barrel of a rusty old shotgun ends up on someone's wall.

I firmly believe that it would be best for the species, as well as for the people living in areas with deer problem, to put on their hats and go hunting.

I AM ABOVE THE LAW! and by law I mean Darwinian law, and I'm not the only one, all humans are, we have moved past traditional evolution and our numbers are so great that if we tried to be hunter gatherers again we would destroy the world in a few short years, simply because we would eat everything. Perhaps deer SHOULD fear us, but the thing is we can't just hunt them and when we do its not the same (using guns is not the same as using spears, it might not teach them the lessons they need to learn) there are too many of us and too few of them, the thing is anything short of a bunch of spear wielding maniacs charging into the woods and chasing all the deer aren't gonna teach the deer anything, and of course that's not going to happen, so you need to consider that killing the deer isn't the best course of action unless we want to drive them to extinction (something humans tend to pretty good at) we need another solution because the rules of evolution simply don't apply anymore, if we drive the deer to extinction its not because they are inept at surviving, its because we are too many and too smart for nature to deal with us the way it normally would!

I feel like I didn't get my point across the way I wanted to, but there you have it.

[Nibi]

Just to point out before anybody mentions it...

...relocating animals isn't the best way to deal with it either, even if it is often used. When you relocate an animal you're throwing it into an entirely new environment it isn't familiar with at all. So in this new area they may have a hard time finding food, water and shelter. Also, newcomers may not be welcomed by other animals of the same species, which could cause conflict and could potentially lead to death. Diseases can also be spread around and those relocated animals may simply try to get back to where they were before.

I personally think it's best just not to be stupid when it comes to wildlife. Don't leave food or have compost sitting around outside. "Wildproof" your home so they can't get in and wreck your house as easily and make sure they don't have any shelter to use on your property. Don't get too close to them so you don't provoke them to attack. Keep your pets inside if you think something may try to eat them. NEVER! Feed the wildlife. That'll make them come back for more.

It's not so much about fear but rather food and shelter. As long as you limit that, they shouldn't be as much of a problem in an area. Deer are a little harder though since they're herbivores. But that just means they need more plants in those areas that deer hate. (Like ornamental grasses, iris, foxgloves, yucca, herbs and plants with a strong fragrance and plants with thorns)

[Drake Wingfire]

Im with Ruby on this one honestly. If people are out feeding wild animals and getting them accustomed to people then there really isnt anyone to blame but the people when someone gets attacked. Just because an animal will come into your yard to find your table scraps or ravage your bird feeders doesn't mean they are domesticated, in fact it makes them more dangers because they know there is food there and will return and if a person or someones pet happens to be outside there they risk getting attacked due to said animal now thinking someone could be threatening its food supply and them thinking this has become their territory.

Not to say I don't find wild life nice to look at or anything, but if they are coming right up to your house like a trick-or-treater. You should probably invest in a cap gun or some method to scare them out of the are for both your sakes. What many people seem to forget are the predators we have around here, namely cougars that hunt deer, where do people think those pretty-kitties are gonna go when their food supply starts hanging with the humans? Deer may be more docile but im sure people will sing a different tune when a large cat is enjoying a fido or little timmy snack.

[Silvermink]

Now, this is going to make me sound like a naturist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturism (NSFW)

Not sure that's the word you were after, but it made me giggle.

I think it's all well and good to say "we should be able to coexist" but I don't think this is a good or safe situation for either the humans or the animals and probably something needs to be done about it, though I'm not advocating any particular solution.

What I can address is the matter of co-existing. You say co-existing is not practical or optimal for us or deer, (By the way I think living is pretty optimal on the deers side of things) suggesting it may be impossible. Well, we currently co-exist with dogs, cats, horses, and many other creatures that were once or even still are roaming wild in some places.

"That doesn't count, they're domestic now!"

Well that sure doesn't stop them from showing their wild side from time to time. There are plenty of reported attacks from, say, dogs everywhere. Dogs whom have never had any record of violence, and just attacked unprovoked. Some who have even attacked children. From what I know this usually leads to a dog getting put down, yet the general populace still doesn't second guess letting dogs co-exist with us. It's a risk we're clearly more then willing to  take. So why should it be any different for deer? Heck deer don't even hunt for meat, where some animals we live with do. I think with enough time anything can be accomplished.

Because deer are wild animals. Sure, a dog COULD attack you, but dogs are domesticated and are generally safe around people. Especially if you were to take out the statistics for a small number of dog breeds which are more likely to attack people I think you'd find the number of dog attacks relative to the number of dogs is pretty darn low.

I'd feel safer being ten feet from a pit bull than I would being ten feet from a wild deer, personally. I think there's really a difference in kind between wild and domesticated animals here that you're trying to deny.

[Chloe]

Because deer are wild animals. Sure, a dog COULD attack you, but dogs are domesticated and are generally safe around people. Especially if you were to take out the statistics for a small number of dog breeds which are more likely to attack people I think you'd find the number of dog attacks relative to the number of dogs is pretty darn low.

I'd feel safer being ten feet from a pit bull than I would being ten feet from a wild deer, personally. I think there's really a difference in kind between wild and domesticated animals here that you're trying to deny.

Firstly yes, I know what naturism is. :P That is indeed what I meant, I know its primarily about nudism but from some naturists I've met there's apparently more too it.

Alright secondly, there really is no difference. Dogs were wild animals once, now they're not. This part is not an opinion, this is a fact. The only variable that divides a domestic dog from a wild deer is time (Albiet a large amount of time, but time none the less). What you're saying is that wild dogs can change, but wild deer can't. That makes no sense to me.  Wild animals 'have' changed to live in our own homes or backyard's. There is no difference when it comes to a wild deer. Now I'm not saying co-existing is what we 'should' do, all I'm trying to say is I don't believe its impossible.

[Silvermink]

Firstly yes, I know what naturism is. :P That is indeed what I meant, I know its primarily about nudism but from some naturists I've met there's apparently more too it.

My bad, then.

Alright secondly, there really is no difference. Dogs were wild animals once, now they're not. This part is not an opinion, this is a fact. The only variable that divides a domestic dog from a wild deer is time (Albiet a large amount of time, but time none the less). What you're saying is that wild dogs can change, but wild deer can't. That makes no sense to me.  Wild animals 'have' changed to live in our own homes or backyard's. There is no difference when it comes to a wild deer. Now I'm not saying co-existing is what we 'should' do, all I'm trying to say is I don't believe its impossible.

I'm not suggesting wild deer can't change - you're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that as they are currently, I don't think the situation is tenable. Just because there's the potential for them to change doesn't mean the situation is fine now.

Also, are you suggesting deer will just self-domesticate given enough time in close proximity to humans? 'cause I have my doubts about that. There's a genetic factor to the way dogs are too, if I'm not mistaken (see this study on foxes). Not to mention there are plenty of species (coyotes, rats, raccoons, etc.) that have adapted to humans, but there's a big difference between that and domestication, and coexisting with said animals in an urban setting can still be pretty rough.

And even if deer would self-domesticate, I'm not sure I'd want to be the one with all the deer in my yard in the meantime.

[Nibi]

HEY LOOK! I found something interesting...

Wild Animal Attacks

Shows that deer haven't killed anybody. :\

[Sevrin]

that's not surprising, they are DEER after all, which is what makes this whole thing so ridiculous to me, it's like being afraid of rabbits or something.

[Silvermink]

that's not surprising, they are DEER after all, which is what makes this whole thing so ridiculous to me, it's like being afraid of rabbits or something.

I'm not sure the people mentioned in the article linked in the OP would share your point of view, and I daresay they're in a better position to judge.

[Sevrin]

I've been attacked by a rabbit before, I realized that I had backed it into a corner and that the attack was entirely my fault. I'm not saying rabbits are vicious animals and need to be killed.
I'm VERY sure she HEAVILY embellished the aggressiveness of the deer in her report, and I find it extremely likely that her dog was the reason she was attacked at all, IF she even was actually attacked in the first place, I find it hard to believe that a 65 year old woman walking her dog could outrun an angry deer.

[bloodredruby]

Goodness, Gracious, Great walls of Text!!

Chloe~

Here's my counter-argument. ^.~

I also believe that life is precious, and something to protect. However, I also know that, sometimes, to protect the many, you must destroy the few. I want nothing more than for my future grand kids and great grand kids to be able to see the beauty of Vancouver Island and BC as I see it every day, but, for that to happen, we can't just let things stay as they are.

I believe you are misinterpreting my argument, here. I'm not suggesting that we destroy all the deer, or that we start destroying them as a dominance display. I believe that we NEED to remind them that we are predators, and that they need to be scared of us, and the only way to do that is by thinning the herd. I believe that is the only way to really protect them from us; the less time they spend around humans and the less contact they have with humans, the safer they are from us and the dangers of our world.

I did say co-existing is not practical or optimal. I did not in any way say it was impossible; as a matter of fact, we're coexisting with them right now. It ain't perfectly smooth, but we're managing. I think that living, for a deer, is pretty optimal too. I just believe that it's better for the species to survive as a whole, rather than risk being destroyed by fearlessness or something as unpredictable and dangerous as humans.

We don't coexist with domestic animals, we are the masters of them. We decide what they do, where, when and for how long. Some domestic animals are more independent than others, but they all look to humans as a dominant creature, and that deference has taken thousands of years of selective breeding for genetic characteristics and subtle mutations to perfect. They are vastly different than wild animals, in not only physiology (color, size, musculature, etc) but also mentally, genetically, and, most important, in their instincts. Deer haven't been bred to be submissive and accepting of humans, and it would take many, many years to breed them to be such.

I also know that domestic animals can snap and attack humans; they are no different from us, we all have our breaking point, where violence is the answer. As someone who was attacked by a dog as a child, this is something I understand very well.

I also agree with you, neither one of us is right or wrong; we just differ in opinion. It's always interesting to see a topic from another person's POV, though.  ^.^
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~Sevrin

I'm not suggesting that we hunt them to the brink of extinction; I am suggesting an organized and controlled thinning of the herd. There is a vast difference. I also do not like to see an animal be killed and go to waste, that is why I would like to see the meat and hides used, rather than discarded.

You are right, we are not the hunters we once were, and guns are hugely different from spears or arrows. The method of hunting has very little to do with the desired end result, however. I don't care if we use blow guns or tactical missiles as long as the end result is the deer as a species finding our scent and our presence frightening. Fear equals avoidance, which means decreased instances of accidental or unnecessary death by human means.

And I'm sorry, love, but I'm afraid you are wrong about evolution. It is, as it always has been, in full effect. If you choose a local species of birds or rodents and watch it for a few years, take notes and such, you will see changes in their behavior. Every generation finds a better way to relate to their environment, new ways to solve problems, food sources or varieties that are more easily accessible. Sometimes it is hard to see the changes, but if you really look, they are there.  ;)
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Nibi~

Totally agree with you on relocation. For some individual animals who are obviously not "from around here" i.e. a deer from up the mountain as opposed to a deer from around Victoria, relocation could be an option. But to try and relocate and animal that has become accustomed to humans is really difficult, and, like you said, most often does not turn out well for the animal. I think that it's kinder to kill them quickly and painlessly, rather than stand them in foreign turf, with established herds and territories, and predators just waiting for that one confused deer to stray from the bunch.
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Drake~

It's already happening. There are multiple cougar sightings here in town every year, and there are always a few that have to be destroyed because they are threatening people. Predators follow prey, and decide that those hairless, loud, bipedal things with no survival instincts might be kinda tasty. Not to mention deer ticks, lice, and all sorts of other friendly little parasites that catch a ride into towns and cities on their nearest white-tail express.
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Whew! I think I need to go lay down now. XD