People who deserve more

[Icey Dominus]

Yes plumbers do make decent money its a trade and most mind not ALL only most Tradesmen make decent money.

[Aphinity]

Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism?  Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.

If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it.  Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what?  If so, move to Cuba!  Move to Hungary!  There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.

Just because we feel like we cannot do that job, due to pressures of schooling, education, experience, or just plain luck, does not mean those who manage to get to that higher level should not be allowed to.  That's the entire idea of capitalism.

It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT.  It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are.  Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less.  They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money.  Don't believe me?  Try visiting a hospital here vs the US.  You will see it first hand.

[Purplexity]

Just for some clarification

Transit bus drivers are paid very well depending on what your operating and after training you can make upwards of $28 an hour.



RCMP .. They pay you to train at DEPOT $500 a week and feed you and free boarding for you.

Right from their website

Competitive salaries; increasing from $48,104 to $77,944, over the first 3 years of service;

By the end of your 3rd of General duty you make $77,944 salary   How is that underpaid?  That is a very livable wage.
It gets even better when to specialize in something. 


Buss drivers and cops are not underpaid.     Certainly overworked though

[Drake Wingfire]

Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism?  Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.

If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it.  Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what?  If so, move to Cuba!  Move to Hungary!  There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.

Just because we feel like we cannot do that job, due to pressures of schooling, education, experience, or just plain luck, does not mean those who manage to get to that higher level should not be allowed to.  That's the entire idea of capitalism.

It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT.  It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are.  Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less.  They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money.  Don't believe me?  Try visiting a hospital here vs the US.  You will see it first hand.

Eeeeexcept for the fact US health care is pretty much a fancy pyramid scheme where the insurance companies get the bulk of the cash, doctors get good pay, but for the stuff they do, they deserve it. The US health care system though has always been about profits. Profits before life is not the best policy when it comes to human life. That is unless the people are okay with how many deaths such a system causes.

Socialism VS capitalism wasn't the argument here. Otherwise we would have all been arguing about exact same wages. People saying they wish there was something more than just super rich VS poor as shit doesn't mean we want socialism. The best payed people in North America as pencil pushers who shove money around in circles, even when they screw the pooch so hard it dies, they still get massive payouts. To me the economic system we embrace seems rather anti-american. Once again, to  call people who simply want to beat the poverty line "Socialists" is jumping the shark. To me it seems like the same mindset that was had back when slavery was up on the table to be abolished. I am sure back then people were calling it some sort of extremist moment because it went against the status quo of dirt cheap or even free labor when in turn the owner raked in all the profits. To me that shares a lot of ironic similarities with our modern economic structure. Just today instead of it being races taken advantage of its any person simply just trying to get by in this world, god forbid if they speak up about it being unfair that they get over worked for minimum wage, while the managers/owners who at best push pencils get the vast sum of profits and even increases when business is doing well while employees see no benefits to them for their hard work. we are raised to see it as right that there are two classes of citizens in our capitalist countries, those who are the manipulators, and those to be manipulated.

[Tef]

Hm...or should we emulate the Quebec system and provide more reliable financial support? Last I checked, British Columbia has the highest rates of child poverty (14%) compared to other provinces.  :popcorn:

[Carthage]

Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism?  Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.

First and foremost, communism and socialism are two distinct political constructs.

Second, both the United States and Canada have some form of Socialism integrated into the operation of their federal, state/provincial, and municipal operations. This can be seen in everything from the highway system (usually federally and/or provincially run) to the water systems (municipally run.)

If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it.  Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what?  If so, move to Cuba!  Move to Hungary!  There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.

It may well be our right but as has been mentioned in this thread on a few occasions now, there is a certain degree of nepotism and arrogance present in almost every industry. That, combined with an increasing number of applicants and decreasing number of available positions means that employers can reject almost any applicant for almost any reason and usually not need to justify it.

It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT.  It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are.  Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less.  They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money.  Don't believe me?  Try visiting a hospital here vs the US.  You will see it first hand.

While in theory the only person stopping you is you, in practice many jobs currently pay only enough to keep you exactly where you are. Any desire to move beyond that point requires further education, which requires more money. Many people driving taxis and washing dishes would really rather be doing anything else, but because of what they are paid, can't afford to get the training they need and pay all their bills.

I won't argue Canadian vs. American medical services. Doctors in the US are usually grossly overpaid by insurance companies based on what tests and treatments they run. Doctors in BC are paid by the provincial government (Another example of socialism). But have you noticed how long it takes to see a specialist? Or the lack of Family Physicians? These are things that could be helped (not necessarily solved) by an increase in their wages. General Practicioners (Family Doctors) could pay off their student loans more quickly, which wouldn't drive them into specializing, meaning we'd have more family doctors. The doctors who chose to specialize wouldn't need to specialize in the high-paying fields like neuro-surgery just to pay off their educations.

So you see, this thread isn't arguing for Socialism because it's already here. It isn't arguing for Communism because we certainly don't want that here. It isn't arguing against Capitalism either. In fact, if anything it's making an argument to help boost all the capitalist desires of every worker out there. A little extra money in everyone's pockets would help people buy the things they need and want, which means more money circulating, and more money being spent. The great circle of economics.

[Icey Dominus]

I love that some many of you guys have so much awesome info its exciting and very interesting to read. My original idea for this thred was simply some people are unappreciated such as the dish washer, the BC Hydro electricians, bus drivers, police and fuck allot of people. I also made the point that some are very under payed for the service they provide but that wasnt the WHOLE point to this. Money and wage is just a part.
I know allot of you guys do this but perhaps next time you get off the bus or out of a taxi say thanks, or you can be really brave an go up to a cop and say thanks for being here some perhaps wont take that very well but hell if I was a cop and someone thanked me for being a cop and keeping my home safe, that would make my day. I am sorry if I am a little off the wall but I think everyone should make a conscious effort once a day to say thanks to someone who dosnt generally get thanked for doing there job.

AS for the argument about Communism/ Socialism/ and well fucked up Capitalism I LOVE THESE ARGUMENTS!
I had written out what I wanted to say on that but really Carthage already said it for me couldn't have said it any better thanks for that.

Thank you

[Tef]

First and foremost, communism and socialism are two distinct political constructs.

Thank you for speaking my mind.  :)

[Aphinity]

So you see, this thread isn't arguing for Socialism because it's already here. It isn't arguing for Communism because we certainly don't want that here. It isn't arguing against Capitalism either. In fact, if anything it's making an argument to help boost all the capitalist desires of every worker out there. A little extra money in everyone's pockets would help people buy the things they need and want, which means more money circulating, and more money being spent. The great circle of economics.

So, essentially, you agree with me that people should get out and improve themselves to get the better job, rather than sitting around and wishing that they got paid better for what they do now?  That's all I was meaning by what I said, so I'm glad you seem to be indicating an agreement to that.

To state that there are less jobs only means the area you are pursuing is over-saturated.  Believe me, I know this all too well being in the IT sector.  I tried to move on and I failed, so I wound up back where I started again.  I don't blame the industry, economic climate, or employer for that.  I blame myself for not being able to change my focus sufficiently to move beyond where I am today.  One day, I will, and I know I can. 

You know what happens when there are too many applicants for a job?  The wages for that job decrease.  You know what happens then?  People move to other fields.  BC saw a LOT of that when high tech boom became a trades boom, and now we're in a trades recession again.  Pretty soon, all the people who have been working as electricians and carpenters will be back working as data analysts and HR managers.  It's how the economy works.

Communism is an evolved form of socialism.  The same?  No.  I used it as a catch word to make people realize that when taken to an extreme, the arguments stated in this thread reflect that line of thinking in many ways. :)

[Carthage]

So, essentially, you agree with me that people should get out and improve themselves to get the better job, rather than sitting around and wishing that they got paid better for what they do now?  That's all I was meaning by what I said, so I'm glad you seem to be indicating an agreement to that.

I absolutely agree that people should be getting out there and improving themselves. Lots of people want to improve themselves but because of what they are being paid can't afford to. Not everyone, but probably more that you think.

I used it as a catch word to make people realize that when taken to an extreme, the arguments stated in this thread reflect that line of thinking in many ways.

Which arguments are those?

[Aphinity]

I absolutely agree that people should be getting out there and improving themselves. Lots of people want to improve themselves but because of what they are being paid can't afford to. Not everyone, but probably more that you think.

Not to push this to the point of argument, but that's what student loans are intended for.  Not wanting to go into debt to improve yourself is not a valid excuse considering the amount of debt the average person can carry today and still get by.

Which arguments are those?

I believe the socialist and capitalist stances are both represented in the opinions offered within this thread.  There have been people discussing both the side of fair wages for people who work hard, and the other side of how economics works around the money that the jobs bring in so wages reflect on that.  Both are seeking ultimately different ideals and both are not wrong.. they're just ideologically different.

Just my opinion folks! :D  It's an interesting discussion nonetheless.

[Carthage]

Not to push this to the point of argument, but that's what student loans are intended for.  Not wanting to go into debt to improve yourself is not a valid excuse considering the amount of debt the average person can carry today and still get by.

I'm not opposed to going into debt for the sake of self-improvement. I've done it a couple of times myself. The jobs market and relative payscale still has a certain impact on your capacity to repay the loans. I'm still paying off a student loan I took out almost ten years ago. :P

Mind you, my industry is about as stable as a manic-depressive housecat with ADD.

[Drake Wingfire]

Hm...or should we emulate the Quebec system and provide more reliable financial support? Last I checked, British Columbia has the highest rates of child poverty (14%) compared to other provinces.  :popcorn:

I am gonna go on a completley illogical tangent here and blame that one on the fact BC caters to retirees and immigrants. As long as we keep those groups happy, it doesn't matter how many home-grown kids starve in the governments eyes. Our government crippled BC by doing this and then they think the cure is to ship in exchange students and more rich retirees instead of helping people already living here.

[Drake Wingfire]

To further add, I will agree with former posts.. The market has become grossly saturated. I had a perfect first hand experience when I was living in Nanaimo and the unemployment rate was up to 16% (No joke) I had multiple interviews, even when I brought relevant skills to the table I was turned away or at times even borderline insulted (in a coy way) But usually these fell into one of three groups 1: My former IT work (many didn't wanna hire someone who actually had a good job at one point, they assumed I was un-reliable some how.. for holding a long term IT job..) 2: I am a guy (literally.. retail turned me away cause I wasn't a pretty girly face..) 3: My age (since I am in my early 20s with lots of work experience, this would dictate a higher starting wage, why hire an experience guy for more cash when you can hire a desperate teen who can be more easily fooled and disposed of?)

Employers these days literally do try to find any reason to not hire you.

I went for a bakery job once... on my resume I had two bakery jobs with good references to boot, however, when I applied at one grocery chain and got an interview, the head manager of the store kept bringing into question my IT past. I was honest with him about how the company was shrinking and I was unfortunately layed off. I went on to try and bring my relevant bakery skills/ experience into the light to show him I would be a good asset as I have done this work before. But no matter how f-king hard I tried this manager was hell bent on trying to use my IT job against me to make me seem like a sleaze and a un-reliable person.. Its pretty shit times when you can't get a job with a place that has an opening, especially when you fit the bill nearly perfectly.

This whole modern day situation has had a really nasty effect with employers, employees are so expendable that managers can back stab and make an employees life hell and if the employee breaks down or stresses out and quits, they just hire on another person for usually cheaper wage, treat them like shit till they leave as well. Mix, stir, repeat.

[Tef]

I am gonna go on a completley illogical tangent here and blame that one on the fact BC caters to retirees and immigrants. As long as we keep those groups happy, it doesn't matter how many home-grown kids starve in the governments eyes. Our government crippled BC by doing this and then they think the cure is to ship in exchange students and more rich retirees instead of helping people already living here.

No, no, it's not a tangent, don't you worry. I just got done with a UBC course on social and economic inequality for the term and I think it might be great for me to throw in my two cents.
This is precisely what Paul Kershaw would state. Forget considering just Vancouver, forget considering just the province of British Columbia - Canada does not work for all generations.

http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/

To add to your point, I suggest Control-F'ing "Generational Disconnect".

Point Two that's more applicable to most of us furs:
Most of us essentially fall under the Generation Squeeze gap.
http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/2011/11/23/income-splitting-is-inadequate-for-generation-squeeze/

Well, I could allow a bit of an exception in terms of Quebec...in a sense.