Kelowna city hall is considering flying a pro-life flag next month

einsman · September 01, 2012, 01:26:07 PM

Woah woah woah. First off, I NEVER said anything about those who were raped or such. There are exceptions, yes. I was meaning people who just don't wanna bother with childbirth. And also, if you can't respect someone else's stance on a subject then you shouldn't join the argument.

Grace · September 01, 2012, 01:37:02 PM

Thank you, guys, for weighing in, as well. Awareness of why abortion is and should stay legalized is incredibly important and not enough people understand why it is. On top of everything you've added, as I said before, it will happen anyway, so, whether people believe it's murder or not, it's much better to provide these women with a safe, healthy environment in which to undergo such an invasive procedure.

Quote from: einsman on August 31, 2012, 07:17:25 PM
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period] the fetus gains a heartbeat, and by 21 days it is pumping through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.

So at that point it DOES become murder. Period.

I believe you've made it quite clear that no one can sway your opinion. Fair enough; everyone's entitled to their own point-of-view. However, I will ask that you not try to push it onto others when this does not and can not ever affect you directly; that is, you will never become pregnant, unintentionally or otherwise, and, therefore, the legality of abortion cannot affect your life in a significant way. Pushing for it to be made illegal and, if it ever comes to it, voting for it to be illegal (although I hope Canada's moved far past this point, the upheaval in the US suggests otherwise) is impacting women's rights and, ultimately, their physical and mental health.

I respect that you believe that the life of a ~~blob of matter with a circulatory system~~ (this seems a bit too harsh in hindsight -- let's call it a "living," but neurologically non-functioning, being) is more important than that of a woman who's wound up in a tough situation. Please respect that almost everyone else involved in this thread would rather the woman live a happy, healthy life that she can bring a child into when she's ready, rather than ruin the lives of two people.

EDIT:

Quote from: einsman on September 01, 2012, 01:26:07 PM
Woah woah woah. First off, I NEVER said anything about those who were raped or such. There are exceptions, yes. I was meaning people who just don't wanna bother with childbirth. And also, if you can't respect someone else's stance on a subject then you shouldn't join the argument.

I believe, as quoted above, that you basically said that "[abortion] is murder. Period." That would suggest that you don't care about the circumstances. My first reply to you already addressed the fact that abortion should not, and should never be, used as an alternative to contraception. Accidents happen, rape happens. Women should have the right to deal with these unexpected situations in a safe and controlled manner.

Sevrin · September 01, 2012, 02:25:01 PM

Quote from: einsman on September 01, 2012, 01:26:07 PM
Woah woah woah. First off, I NEVER said anything about those who were raped or such. There are exceptions, yes. I was meaning people who just don't wanna bother with childbirth. And also, if you can't respect someone else's stance on a subject then you shouldn't join the argument.

Oh alright, sorry I guess I just misunderstood your opinion.

Quote from: einsman on August 31, 2012, 07:17:25 PM
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period] the fetus gains a heartbeat, and by 21 days it is pumping through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.

So at that point it DOES become murder. Period.

Murder is obviously okay if the mother was raped, I get it now!

Furthermore, an argument isn't really an argument if I can't argue against your point, you go ahead and dispute everything I said if you want, in fact I was kind of hoping you would because then this would be fun! I prefer to look at it as a debate rather than a personal attack on you, maybe I was a little hostile with the losing respect for you comment and the sarcasm, but a little hostility is kind of inevitable when two peoples opinions vary so greatly.

Carl Foxmarten · September 01, 2012, 03:21:22 PM

I have my own opinions on this, but I will keep them to myself.

Why you ask?
Because everybody who has weighed in here has shown that they won't be swayed by anybody else's opinion.

Sevrin · September 01, 2012, 04:51:27 PM

I'd like to hear your opinions regardless.

Nibi · September 01, 2012, 08:42:25 PM

I honestly felt like nobody was attacking anybody here, interest was sparked when this was stated:

Quote from: einsman on August 30, 2012, 08:58:09 PM
I find it bullshit that murder is illegal, yet abortion is still legal. Either legalize both or ban them both.

Simply because it did indeed come off rather harsh and unfair. But once again, each to his own. We all have different views and opinions and that's reasonable. But even if our opinions are different, they shouldn't force others to follow them. So if you're against abortion, simply never do it yourself. If you're for it and you're faced with having to choose abortion as an option, it's there for you safely.

einsman · September 02, 2012, 08:50:36 PM

Alright, since I was in a bad mood when I originally replied, I would like to apologize and take the time to better explain my stance. I do believe it to be a form of murder, yes, since it it killing a living being. HOWEVER, there are times where it is "acceptable" because if a girl gets raped and such, she is not in a position to be able to properly a child, or the child may be treated as nothing more than an unwanted reminder. That is a LOT worse. HOWEVER, I find that having an abortion simply because someone was stupid and got pregnant from getting knocked up and not wanting the kid because she 'didn't expect it' or sees it as being a turnoff to guys should NOT be allowed to get one. If you don't take proper precautions, you take the consequences. As for the news story, I think it's fine simply because it is being done to show support for pro-life, but is not meant to say that women should not have choice. If it turns into that however, then I will not support it. There should be options, but only when it is justified.

Grace · September 02, 2012, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: einsman on September 02, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
Alright, since I was in a bad mood when I originally replied, I would like to apologize and take the time to better explain my stance. I do believe it to be a form of murder, yes, since it it killing a living being. HOWEVER, there are times where it is "acceptable" because if a girl gets raped and such, she is not in a position to be able to properly a child, or the child may be treated as nothing more than an unwanted reminder. That is a LOT worse. HOWEVER, I find that having an abortion simply because someone was stupid and got pregnant from getting knocked up and not wanting the kid because she 'didn't expect it' or sees it as being a turnoff to guys should NOT be allowed to get one. If you don't take proper precautions, you take the consequences. As for the news story, I think it's fine simply because it is being done to show support for pro-life, but is not meant to say that women should not have choice. If it turns into that however, then I will not support it. There should be options, but only when it is justified.

Thank you for taking the time to better explain your stance on the matter. I think that, while our morale opinions differ, we do hold somewhat similar views as to when it is an appropriate decision for someone to make.

I still can't agree with the city considering flying a pro-life flag because of the implications created by recent media and politics, but I do appreciate your input.

Nibi · September 02, 2012, 09:15:48 PM

Quote from: einsman on September 02, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
Alright, since I was in a bad mood when I originally replied, I would like to apologize and take the time to better explain my stance. I do believe it to be a form of murder, yes, since it it killing a living being. HOWEVER, there are times where it is "acceptable" because if a girl gets raped and such, she is not in a position to be able to properly a child, or the child may be treated as nothing more than an unwanted reminder. That is a LOT worse. HOWEVER, I find that having an abortion simply because someone was stupid and got pregnant from getting knocked up and not wanting the kid because she 'didn't expect it' or sees it as being a turnoff to guys should NOT be allowed to get one. If you don't take proper precautions, you take the consequences. As for the news story, I think it's fine simply because it is being done to show support for pro-life, but is not meant to say that women should not have choice. If it turns into that however, then I will not support it. There should be options, but only when it is justified.

Really happy you wrote that. :-3 I'd rather have a discussion over an argument any day.

Sevrin · September 03, 2012, 10:12:14 PM

Quote from: einsman on September 02, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
Alright, since I was in a bad mood when I originally replied, I would like to apologize and take the time to better explain my stance. I do believe it to be a form of murder, yes, since it it killing a living being. HOWEVER, there are times where it is "acceptable" because if a girl gets raped and such, she is not in a position to be able to properly a child, or the child may be treated as nothing more than an unwanted reminder. That is a LOT worse. HOWEVER, I find that having an abortion simply because someone was stupid and got pregnant from getting knocked up and not wanting the kid because she 'didn't expect it' or sees it as being a turnoff to guys should NOT be allowed to get one. If you don't take proper precautions, you take the consequences. As for the news story, I think it's fine simply because it is being done to show support for pro-life, but is not meant to say that women should not have choice. If it turns into that however, then I will not support it. There should be options, but only when it is justified.

alright well sorry about the sarcasm and whatnot earlier, but consider this:

Not all methods of birth control work 100% of the time? it's not always that someone was being irresponsible, maybe the condom broke, or the pills failed to work for some reason, or perhaps they just forgot to take their pill or something (everyone forgets sometimes) it's not like all the girls that are going and having abortions are doing it because they were having unprotected sex with every guy they ever meet.

Ok, I'm going to look at it from a different perspective that I believe is close to yours: abortion is immoral, except in extreme circumstances where it was not an option for the mother or it presents a serious threat to the mothers life somehow, so under this belief, you still have to consider that not all women that are raped come forward about it, a lot of the time they are ashamed and don't want anyone to know, which is their right, so if this was that case, what do you propose said woman does? assuming that abortion is illegal except in extreme cases, and what if a woman was raped but couldn't prove it? what if there was no evidence and the court ruled against her? there's more to it than just irresponsible promiscuous women, and having the option open for women in unfortunate cases such as those mentioned above is very important, especially if they don't want to come forward about it, not telling people should be their right, not turning something they are ashamed of into a public spectacle is something they should be allowed! it also stops them from trying to perform their own abortions, or have some untrained person do it with unsanitary unprofessional tools.

Also to take a more humorous approach:

Carl Foxmarten · September 04, 2012, 01:33:57 AM

Okay, I see my previous statement that everybody had their mind already made up wasn't correct.
For that, I apologize.

However, I'm still not comfortable enough here to state my stance on such a controversial topic.

Maybe I need to attend a few events first...

Sevrin · September 04, 2012, 01:49:17 AM

no actually I think you were correct in that assumption, I'm still interested in talking about it though, and I'm also interested in hearing your opinions on the subject.

(btw everyone I know how I look with some of my posts, like I'm an aggressive fundie or something, but I'm really not, I just really like getting into things I'm talking about)

Grace · September 04, 2012, 10:27:23 AM

Quote from: Carl Foxmarten on September 04, 2012, 01:33:57 AM
Okay, I see my previous statement that everybody had their mind already made up wasn't correct.
For that, I apologize.

However, I'm still not comfortable enough here to state my stance on such a controversial topic.

Maybe I need to attend a few events first...

I think it's very important for people to share their viewpoints and reasoning (too many people skip that one) in order to foster recognition and understanding of the different sides of an issue. Plus, healthy debate, without emotionally-driven arguing or finger-pointing, can be really good for people, as it helps with self-expression and reasoning, among other things.

If you aren't comfortable with stating your opinion, I can't help but think that, perhaps, you don't believe that you're in the right/you're afraid someone may prove you wrong/etc. For instance, if you believe that people who are pro-choice, as well as women who've had abortions, deserve to be arrested for murder, or put on death row or something, then you should probably keep that to yourself since you're going to have a bad time if you say that. However, if you just believe that life begins at conception and wouldn't enforce pro-choice ideals yourself, but respect that pro-choice people have valid opinions and reasoning, as well (ie. you don't announce that we're horrible murderers destined for hell), then there's nothing wrong with that.

I find conversations like this work best if you focus on a few things:
Respect for differing viewpoints, assuming that logical reasons are provided; some level of tact in order to avoid making people feel insulted and, therefore, defensive and angry; a somewhat thick skin, so that you can handle it if someone does wind up making you feel hurt or insulted; humility, just in case you realize that you agree with the other side, after all

And I am sure as heck not claiming that I managed all of these all the time, haha. It can especially hard to remember that the people you're debating with feel just as strongly about their beliefs as you do about yours.

einsman · September 04, 2012, 09:01:27 PM

Quote from: Sevrin on September 03, 2012, 10:12:14 PM
alright well sorry about the sarcasm and whatnot earlier, but consider this:

Not all methods of birth control work 100% of the time? it's not always that someone was being irresponsible, maybe the condom broke, or the pills failed to work for some reason, or perhaps they just forgot to take their pill or something (everyone forgets sometimes) it's not like all the girls that are going and having abortions are doing it because they were having unprotected sex with every guy they ever meet.

Ok, I'm going to look at it from a different perspective that I believe is close to yours: abortion is immoral, except in extreme circumstances where it was not an option for the mother or it presents a serious threat to the mothers life somehow, so under this belief, you still have to consider that not all women that are raped come forward about it, a lot of the time they are ashamed and don't want anyone to know, which is their right, so if this was that case, what do you propose said woman does? assuming that abortion is illegal except in extreme cases, and what if a woman was raped but couldn't prove it? what if there was no evidence and the court ruled against her? there's more to it than just irresponsible promiscuous women, and having the option open for women in unfortunate cases such as those mentioned above is very important, especially if they don't want to come forward about it, not telling people should be their right, not turning something they are ashamed of into a public spectacle is something they should be allowed! it also stops them from trying to perform their own abortions, or have some untrained person do it with unsanitary unprofessional tools.

Also to take a more humorous approach:

I feel like you are reading between the lines here. No matter what happens with abortion laws, there will always be those gray areas that no one can really settle on. It's just as much of a philosophical debate as it is scientific and physical, alas.

Grace · September 05, 2012, 01:36:29 AM

Sorry to interrupt the current thread of conversation, guys, but I wanted to add an update to the original topic:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/anti-abortion-and-pro-choice-groups-square-off/article4519392/

Seems things are starting to get rather serious around here. From what I can gather, the Right To Life society's freedom of speech, in their opinion, apparently trumps women's rights. Who knew? I can't get over their seeming inability to recognize why so many people are upset over this whole ordeal.