My faith in humanity just died a little

[Sevrin]

and there you have it:

it seems they have openly admitted it now

[EmoFox]

Ehh the sign is true though. Reason is faith's greatest enemy. Not religious faith specifically either. It's mind over matter. Even if it scientifically doesn't make sense, that doesn't necessarily mean that it absolutely can not be true. Buuut I'm not going to get into that argument any further, because it's my mom's argument and I only know maybe half of it.

Further more, I would actually like to stay in my delusion that there are no crazy weirdos like that in Canada. As much as reason says its not true, I'll keep my faith that it is. Ignorance is bliss after all, :p

[Selkit]

Unfortunately, EmoFox, there are nuts like that in Canada. One of the more prominent ones is Dennis Markuze (Posts under the alias David Mabus). Completely incoherent, rambling nonsense touching on everything from the usual "X world leader is the antichrist" on to more crazed notions like geocentrism, flat-Earther nonsense, gravity being a function of Earth accelerating upwards in space (Somehow this proves his flat-Earth notions. How, I'm not sure), and emission theory (You see because your eyes are actually emitting light. Pew pew! Eye lasers!). Lovely fellow, really. He's made death threats against various science bloggers, showed up at the Skeptic's conference in Montreal (And apparently yanked a fire pull in the hotel), and other silly stunts. Usually though, he sticks to spamming forums with ten to twenty screen long floods of meme images that he thinks support whatever position he's getting across, conspiracy theorist YouTube links, and a sprinkling of two or three dozen links to his own Time Cube grade website. Psychiatric care needs a bit of a funding and legal revisit, methinks.

[Sevrin]

i seriously feel like i'm being punk'd here, its just hard to understand how someone can be THAT crazy

[Foxxphyre]

Ehh the sign is true though. Reason is faith's greatest enemy. Not religious faith specifically either. It's mind over matter. Even if it scientifically doesn't make sense, that doesn't necessarily mean that it absolutely can not be true. Buuut I'm not going to get into that argument any further, because it's my mom's argument and I only know maybe half of it.

Further more, I would actually like to stay in my delusion that there are no crazy weirdos like that in Canada. As much as reason says its not true, I'll keep my faith that it is. Ignorance is bliss after all, :p

Sorry to disappoint you... but the bat-shit is in your backyard! In Mission, BC: http://www.valleychristianschool.ca/philosophy.html

[Selkit]

Sorry to disappoint you... but the bat-shit is in your backyard! In Mission, BC: http://www.valleychristianschool.ca/philosophy.html

I clearly see that Canada needs its own Dover V. Kitzmiller precedent set. I've seen enough on their home page to know that they are at best misguided, and at worst willfully teaching un-vetted, incorrect scientific, sociological and linguistic concepts. The activist side of me is screaming at me to make a case with the board of education over them. When "intelligent design" or "creation science" or whatever else they want to call the "World is 6,000 years old despite all scientific evidence to the contrary" bunkum is taught in place of actual peer reviewed science that *CHANGES WHEN IT IS WRONG*, there is something highly foul going on. Admission of an error is the first step in being factually complete, something so-called faith-based education will never wholly grasp. You want to teach that? Fine. Do it on your own funding. The province does not need to be funding theological initiatives that not all taxpayers proscribe to, or even approving them as a public educational site (The school is supposedly approved by the board! I'd spit nails if I found out they were actually being funded with taxpayer money). This one can't even be categorized the same way as a faith-based agency providing general social or medical aid and assistance heedless of creed; The school's sole purpose is education aimed at furthering one faith, not education or secular knowledge in general.

Makes me rage. Agencies like that one are directly responsible for the bulk of the Dennis Markuzes loose in the world, or the shining example in the original post.

[Sevrin]

this reminds me of this time where i had an in depth conversation with a christian trying to disprove evolution by saying creatures could not survive (and therefor not evolve into more advanced creatures) without stomachs
and by in depth conversation i mean i refuted all his retarded ideas with hard evidence and common sense
in the end he still thought he was right, even though everyone else reading the conversation thought he was retarded.
in fact, someone claiming to be christian *facepalm*'d at his stupidity

[Foxxphyre]

I clearly see that Canada needs its own Dover V. Kitzmiller precedent set. I've seen enough on their home page to know that they are at best misguided, and at worst willfully teaching un-vetted, incorrect scientific, sociological and linguistic concepts. The activist side of me is screaming at me to make a case with the board of education over them. When "intelligent design" or "creation science" or whatever else they want to call the "World is 6,000 years old despite all scientific evidence to the contrary" bunkum is taught in place of actual peer reviewed science that *CHANGES WHEN IT IS WRONG*, there is something highly foul going on. Admission of an error is the first step in being factually complete, something so-called faith-based education will never wholly grasp. You want to teach that? Fine. Do it on your own funding. The province does not need to be funding theological initiatives that not all taxpayers proscribe to, or even approving them as a public educational site (The school is supposedly approved by the board! I'd spit nails if I found out they were actually being funded with taxpayer money). This one can't even be categorized the same way as a faith-based agency providing general social or medical aid and assistance heedless of creed; The school's sole purpose is education aimed at furthering one faith, not education or secular knowledge in general.

Makes me rage. Agencies like that one are directly responsible for the bulk of the Dennis Markuzes loose in the world, or the shining example in the original post.

Certainly willful.  I have a friend who attended that school grades 1-8.  The amount of deprogramming that had to go on with her was astounding (but sooo worth the time :D).  But yeah, they would be worth investigating.  Whats worse?  Former Canadian Alliance Party Leader, Deputy PM and now retiring member of Harpers cabinet Stockwell Day?  Creationist.  I think we'd better just wave goodbye to the madness that is Canada and go with the whole Cascadia plan (yeah, Day is a BCer, but he likes to support fascists... which is somewhat antithetical to many BCers)

[Foxxphyre]

Bat-shittery continued: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/18/murray-seidman-pennsylvania-man-stoned-to-death_n_837655.html

[Selkit]

Foxx;

When I read news postings in that vein, I grow increasingly disgusted with the attitude in Canada and the United States regarding mental health. Psychiatric care really ought to be a universal human right, one that's stripped of its current stigma, provided freely and encouraged at the early signs of trouble. I do not see a theist driven to kill, I see a schizophrenic individual who did not get the help he required. Two lives could have been saved by prompt intervention, one literal and one from a grave criminal charge.

[Foxxphyre]

Not going to disagree with the fact that mental health patients get screwed- I deal with many folks with mental health issues all the time and its really sad how they get no support whatsoever from society. 

On the other hand- where do you draw the line between mental health issues and fundamentalism- religious or otherwise?  We could claim that being a religious fundamentalist IS actually a mental health issue... but I think thats a really bad idea, especially considering the power indoctrination has to convince people of what is right.  Should the State intervene when its someones sincere belief to take the Bible literally?  If thats the case, they should start forcing psyc exams on everyone. Not only would we be infringing on freedom or religion, but we'd be creating a very scary "Clockwork Orange" style nanny state and that is a very slippery slope.

Furthermore, this man wasn't necessarily struck with mental health issues- until he has a psych exam, there's no proof of that and there are other motives for this murder (money- the killer was the sole beneficiary of the victim).  There are also a number of prominent public figures, especially in the US, who actively promote this sort of behaviour.  Are they suffering from mental health issues that the State should see to?  I mean, sociopathic megalomania is a huge one... but good luck locking up most of our politicians and all of FOX news.

This issue goes far beyond the lack of psychiatric care being offered by society.  The roots are deep in society itself and it should give us all a cause to look at our fundamental structures and beliefs with great scrutiny.  "Something is rotten in the State."

[OryxFox]

Unfortunately, EmoFox, there are nuts like that in Canada. One of the more prominent ones is Dennis Markuze (Posts under the alias David Mabus). Completely incoherent, rambling nonsense touching on everything from the usual "X world leader is the antichrist" on to more crazed notions like geocentrism, flat-Earther nonsense, gravity being a function of Earth accelerating upwards in space (Somehow this proves his flat-Earth notions. How, I'm not sure), and emission theory (You see because your eyes are actually emitting light. Pew pew! Eye lasers!). Lovely fellow, really. He's made death threats against various science bloggers, showed up at the Skeptic's conference in Montreal (And apparently yanked a fire pull in the hotel), and other silly stunts. Usually though, he sticks to spamming forums with ten to twenty screen long floods of meme images that he thinks support whatever position he's getting across, conspiracy theorist YouTube links, and a sprinkling of two or three dozen links to his own Time Cube grade website. Psychiatric care needs a bit of a funding and legal revisit, methinks.

I clearly see that Canada needs its own Dover V. Kitzmiller precedent set. I've seen enough on their home page to know that they are at best misguided, and at worst willfully teaching un-vetted, incorrect scientific, sociological and linguistic concepts. The activist side of me is screaming at me to make a case with the board of education over them. When "intelligent design" or "creation science" or whatever else they want to call the "World is 6,000 years old despite all scientific evidence to the contrary" bunkum is taught in place of actual peer reviewed science that *CHANGES WHEN IT IS WRONG*, there is something highly foul going on. Admission of an error is the first step in being factually complete, something so-called faith-based education will never wholly grasp. You want to teach that? Fine. Do it on your own funding. The province does not need to be funding theological initiatives that not all taxpayers proscribe to, or even approving them as a public educational site (The school is supposedly approved by the board! I'd spit nails if I found out they were actually being funded with taxpayer money). This one can't even be categorized the same way as a faith-based agency providing general social or medical aid and assistance heedless of creed; The school's sole purpose is education aimed at furthering one faith, not education or secular knowledge in general.

Makes me rage. Agencies like that one are directly responsible for the bulk of the Dennis Markuzes loose in the world, or the shining example in the original post.

Selkit; Meet. Joel's. Army:

[Foxxphyre]

That makes my blood run cold... I knew I was training for a reason...  :vik:

[Selkit]

Unfortunately, I was already aware of them, Oryx. Needless to say, that group has the ACLU and other civil liberties groups highly concerned. However, they may have nipped themselves in the bud on two fronts; They've been almost entirely silent since 2009, their original tattooed man-child of a leader disgraced himself, and I strongly suspect they received a chastisement from the government over terroristic rhetoric. Also? I don't normally like doing this, but the Bible itself makes a very clear case against Joel's Army; I give to you John 18:36, Jesus speaking to Pontius Pilate.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

A relatively concise statement from the core of the Christian faith, stating openly that He is of no Earthly kingdom. There are multiple other statements with similar rhetoric sprinkled throughout the New Testament; Scripture itself refutes the core purpose and premise for Joel's Army. Ironically, the justification for Joel's Army is a particular section of the Old Testament relating to a flood of locusts upon Israel; The army expressly stated within that particular section is NOT a conquering army arriving to establish holy dominion, it's a ravaging force with nothing more on its mind than oblivion and horrors. The entire hard Dominionist movement is based upon a highly twisted, comparatively very small section of the Old Testament, completely ignorant of the New Testament upon which the modern Christian sects are founded. Even mainstream Christianity tends to regard Joel's Army as a bat-shit crazy extremist movement. I'm relatively confident in the long run, that it's a fad; Similar movements have been around since the 40s, and they have never lasted more than a decade. They are built upon the fallacy that their "Passover generation" is the last generation before the End Times.

Speaking of which... there's a new round of doomsday proclamations going about, that May 21st is the Judgement Day, and that October 21st is the end of the world/Rapture. Silly Harold Camping again. His last bold proclamation about it was in 1994.

[Foxxphyre]

Well, there does seem to be some continuity with these groups, at least peripherally.  The more worrying part is that they represent an undercurrent of fundamentalist thinking that floats beneath MAINSTREAM Conservatism (Neo-Con especially).  Outed groups like this are just a very obvious symptom of that underlying hawkishness.

Also see: Prussian Blue (Parents are allowed to do that to their kids?!)

*edit* Bently- the guy behind Joels Army- is still doing his thing with Fresh Fire ministries, so I can only assume they're keeping the crazy a little under the radar at the moment.

*Further Edit* Speaking of bat-shit evangelicals, how far do you think this goes in Canada? http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=80f6fdff-cc0e-4a08-9b96-76f3db32808e　　PMs Office, much?