Because I really, REALLY want to connect with my pet...

Started by Foxxphyre, March 01, 2011, 08:10:06 PM

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EmoFox

Quote from: Renwaldo on March 02, 2011, 09:59:52 PM
The guy had the animal declawed so he could let it into his house and play with it every once and a while. What do you mean it wasn't his pet?! >_<

Furthermore his 'petting zoo' was missing several licenses and permits for the sort of zoological specimens he was keeping, and as I recall the tiger was missing any form of a birth certificate, so nobody knew where it came from, whether it was born wild or excess stock from a zoo. They couldn't prove that he smuggled it, but there was nothing to say that the animal was legally born and bred in Canada either. As for the licenses, he was keeping exotic animals since before many of them were required, and because of where he lived he somehow managed to slip under the environmental ministries radar for many years. Quite the scandal and embarrassing for them. That's one of the reasons he didn't receive heavier charges, somebody should have been keeping a closer watch on people like him but they weren't.

If his facilities were up to par, stupid chicks in flimsy dresses wouldn't be able to go get themselves mauled by tigers. As I recall he was keeping the animal in a small run made from chain-link fencing. You look at professional zookeepers, and they literally have concrete walls and trenches dug between guest viewing places and the animals.

It should also be noted that the tiger was overweight and unhealthy.

I don't think he was a bad person. I think he was simply ignorant.

On one hand I'm glad that there are new laws and restrictions in place so these awful events can be avoided, on the other hand it's unfortunate that the restrictions are so extreme as to outright ban all exotic animals for many potentially responsible owners. To be honest, the majority of people I've seen who've decided they want a pet tiger/bear/fox/wolf/anaconda/whatever aren't responsible, and don't have the slightest clue about zoology or caretaking, but there is a minority of people who are. It's a shame some of us may never have that opportunity. Taking care of such animals is extremely expensive and time consuming, but it isn't impossible, and it is extremely rewarding.  :)

Then there must have been a completely different incident that happened around the same time with shockingly similar circumstances. The tiger that killed the woman in the story I heard was bred and born by one of the guys' older tigers. I saw the thing on Halloween one year; it was 6 months old at the time, I think, and it was healthy then. He declawed their front paws for safety reasons, but they still had their back claws. You've played with a cat before, right? You know when they grab your hand, hug it, and then scratch the shit out of it with their back paws? That's what happened to the lady. That's also how them disembowel birds, and other prey.

As for the licenses and everything, they had only moved to Bridge Lake maybe a year before it happened, so if he was under the radar it wasn't because of that location, depending on how recently the licenses were required (not sure when that was). I don't know the exact profile of his business, but i know that he brought the animals out in public for people to see.

Anyway, details aside, it still sucks in general. It sucks that it happened, it sucks that her kids saw it happen, and it sucks that other people have to suffer the consequences. Hopefully the ban on exotic pets will be lifted eventually and then I can have my pet fox. :3
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EmoFox

Okay, okay, I was showing the website to a friend, did some digging around, and the "domestic silver fox" isn't on the list of "controlled alien species" meaning they're technically not illegal to own. just really expensive.

This list which I got from the ministry includes a number of foxes, of which the fennec is included, but not the red fox. the siberian foxes sold on sibfox originated from the silver morph of the red fox, which means that they're technically legal pets.

...Guess what I want for Christmas? :D

Also, the Arctic Fox isn't included on the list either.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you're right.
Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs harder.

Renwaldo

If it was bred in Canada by one of his previous tigers no documentation was provided to prove it. If I'm remembering correctly, I'm afraid I don't have the link to the original article anymore.

When I was entertaining the notion of getting a pet fox last year, the 'Canadian Food Inspection Agency' had it noted on their site that, "foxes, skunks, raccoons are not permitted to be imported into Canada at this time." So I'll correct myself, it's not that foxes are illegal to own in Canada per se, there was just no legal means to obtain them.  :P I scoured the internet for weeks, and I couldn't find any fur farms or breeders in this country still in business. However the CFIA seems to have changed their rules now:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/heasan/pol/ie-2002-3e.shtml
When I read that thing in the winter of 2010 it was quite clear on that particular policy, 'no foxes, skunks or coons at this time.' However that seems to have changed now, and there seems to be several former policies missing. The site says the page hasn't been touched since 2007, but I can guarantee you they've made some major changes there since last year.  :roll:

Policies may still vary per province of course. What you see there isn't necessarily true across the country, regulations specific to B.C. may still apply.

If anyone is interested in getting a pet fox, I would recommend actually speaking to a representative from the provincial environmental ministry. They would be able to tell you for certain. The websites seem to be unreliable.  :-\

FurryJackman

May I also add this: http://www2.canada.com/westerly/story.html?id=e7608076-3c4d-4c19-bc85-2c9ce913b8e1

This was the case of an injured deer that an old lady gave TLC for and eventually won the right to keep thanks to the mayor.

Lt ReiStark

Still people, foxes are not comparable to TIGERS!!!!


FOX  (compared size)TIGER
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Commandment#12: If Thy Dotht Not Shut Thine Hell up. I must Striketh Thy With My Mellenium Rod.
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more will be added

EmoFox

I dug around the link ren posted; they won't give permits for foxes to be imported as personal pets. they WILL however give permits for commercial reasons, say breeding. So... open a breeding farm for domestic foxes in canada? :b

also.. reistark.. wtf? what do tigers have to do with the current conversation flow exactly?
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you're right.
Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs harder.

Renwaldo

Rei was simply referring to the Idiocy of the Canadian government concerning the banning on exotics.

EmoFox

i suppose that would make sense then.

I would assume that one of the concerns there is, a fox is like a dog, and even a dog can tear a person to pieces under the right circumstances. But dogs have been domesticated for hundreds if not thousands of years. And for some reason that makes them more reliable than "wild" animals, or exotic pets.

Also, I actually googled Fennec foxes earlier, for the first time. So. Cute. But I like red foxes better, :p
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you're right.
Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs harder.

Foxxphyre

Some dogs can tear a person apart... like pit-bulls, German Shephards etc (50-80kg +) foxes are like, 6-8 kgs.  A big cat at best.
The path of the Dancer is action and emotion; the path of the Warrior is wisdom and peace

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EmoFox

I had a longer, more thought out post typed up, but then my toddler came over and hit a button and I can't get it back, T_T

Main points were; german shepherds and pitbulls don't weigh 50+ kgs; a pitbull weighs 14-27 kgs, and a german shepherd 30-40 kgs. Red foxes weigh 3-10 kgs. So more like a medium dog than a "big cat". Foxes bones are lighter than dog bones, which explains the weight difference, but also allows them to move quicker. And either way, their jaw is still large enough to rip your jugular out.

The biggest difference is likely attitude; a dog is a hunter, used to taking down larger game, and so I would think is more likely to attack a human than a fox would be; foxes are skittish and don't take down big game. Their fight or flight instinct would have them run before fighting, and since they're so agile and quick, it really wouldn't be hard for them, even if you cornered them, they'd likely just run between your legs.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you're right.
Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs harder.

Foxxphyre

10kg is top end for cats... but some get that big (maine coons get huuge).  A red fox, fully grown, can be carried fairly easily by an adolescent human.  Not really sure why we're arguing though :P
The path of the Dancer is action and emotion; the path of the Warrior is wisdom and peace

"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself" ~Carl Sagan~

Sikhoten_Tiger

QuoteOn one hand I'm glad that there are new laws and restrictions in place so these awful events can be avoided, on the other hand it's unfortunate that the restrictions are so extreme as to outright ban all exotic animals for many potentially responsible owners. To be honest, the majority of people I've seen who've decided they want a pet tiger/bear/fox/wolf/anaconda/whatever aren't responsible, and don't have the slightest clue about zoology or caretaking, but there is a minority of people who are. It's a shame some of us may never have that opportunity. Taking care of such animals is extremely expensive and time consuming, but it isn't impossible, and it is extremely rewarding.  Smiley

Personally I'm glad that they banned this, not simply because of the irresponsible owners issue but because of the fallout that comes as a result of that. How much money do you think is sunk into places like big cat rescue who are essentially doing clean up of the hazardous animals left behind by these owners to prevent them simply being killed instead. I view this as a distraction from more critical and irreversable issues found in the conservation field. We're down to our last 3000 or so tigers in the wild and sometime in the next decade or two we're going to reach a breaking point with them, spending millions on captive tigers in people's homes or at the rescues that have to take them when they get out of hand seems insane to me.

EmoFox

Quote from: Foxxphyre on March 10, 2011, 02:22:40 AM
10kg is top end for cats... but some get that big (maine coons get huuge).  A red fox, fully grown, can be carried fairly easily by an adolescent human.  Not really sure why we're arguing though :P
But a red fox isn't the *size* of a cat. It's the size of a medium dog. It's only lighter because it's bones are lighter, which only enables it to move quicker. And we were arguing over the true danger of a pet fox on society; size-wise, they could be considered dangerous, but attitude-wise, I think there's little to no danger. :P I like to argue. Sorry.
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you're right.
Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and the world laughs harder.

Renwaldo

The politics behind the banning on certain exotics like foxes isn't to do with the animals' size or level of aggression, the ministry is worried mainly about viral illnesses specifically, among other things. They feel there isn't enough information published about rare domesticated species for ordinary people to make informed choices concerning the animals' welfare. The biggest example being that few veterinarians know enough about foxes (or any other exotic, really) to properly treat them, because the programs they took were likely from the perspective of ranching or domestic pet care. There are very few specialists who can treat zoo animals or wild animals, because there isn't a basic demand for them.

The representative I spoke to last year said the laws and regulations are placed and tweaked per the needs of society. Right now, there aren't enough people interested in animal welfare in the area of domesticating or preserving exotics, so that's why the bans were put in place. It wouldn't be cost effective for the government to regulate fox or tiger pet ownership in B.C. given the small portion of the population that is actually involved. It's frusterating for people like us - the minority - but the government really did make the right decision.  :-\

If any of you really want a fox badly enough, I encourage you to opt for zoo or sanctuary status. It's a lot of hard work that will likely take years, but the payoff is you'll get to work with the animal you always wanted. Animals on that banned list are still being legally kept and bred in captivity in B.C. by qualified people who've sacrificed the time and money to care for them.
Talk to people from the environmental ministry, the CFIA, and proffessionals in our local sanctuaries and zoos. They'll be able to help you get the information you need.  :)

Sometime in the far future I want to work with exotic animals of my own. In the near future I plan to take up and internship at Crittercare in Langley, it's a rehabilitation centre for injured wildlife. If aybody's interested they're always accepting new volunteers.

Foxxphyre

Good plan!  As far as foxes go though... you're probably wrong.  Importing them as commercial fur bearing animals is still legal.  If you want to farm them for profit, you're allowed, and those animals still require a level of health to get around humane issues so I'm going to assume there are vets able to deal with them.  Also, we're part of their natural range... anything they could come into contact with here, so could our dogs/cats etc. Governments like blanket bans, and Canada's bureaucracy is pretty awful.
The path of the Dancer is action and emotion; the path of the Warrior is wisdom and peace

"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself" ~Carl Sagan~