BC Furries

Hello BCF,

A while ago I started the BC Furries Skype Chat which you may have heard of.
The original intention was to provide all BC Furs a friendly and receptive place where they could chat with other furs.

It was readily apparent that BC Furs are quite varied from one to another, and some found the overtly sexual dialogue and colorful language a little bit intimidating and would rather not participate. This coupled with the fact that we have users registered in the chat that are as young as 12 led me, with the advisement of other furs, to create the BC Furries 18+ chat, which would have no filtering, whereas the original BC Furry chat would 'motivate' users into more appropriate discussion and no explicit language.

Sadly...while this worked for a while, we had a few incidents tonight, largely attributed to my inadequacy as an administrator where such a balance has been broken. Certain users have voiced their concern that this censorship and segregation was a violation of their rights and as a result have chosen to ignore the rules that have been established (another issue brought up is that these so-called rules have not been exactly written down in anywhere, I've just been reminding people whenever I see activity that is not appropriate, again, this is also my fault). I have added these users to the 18+ board, but currently I have not kicked them out of the current BC Furries board, as their feelings were quite strong on the matter and some harsh criticisms were leveled at me, and I feel a discourse should be opened here on the forums, so all furs can have their voice on the matter at hand.

First, I would like to apologize here publicly and that I'm sincerely sorry for anyone who felt offended by the events that occurred as a result of my actions, I hope that those who still feel as if I have wronged them in some way will come to, in time, forgive me, and hopefully understand the reason for my actions.

Secondly, It is my hope that through such a discussion we could reach an accord where all members can feel included and avoid another incident from occurring. So from this post forward I would like to hear as a whole what the community would like from a Skype Chat. Keep in mind our goal here should be to accommodate EVERYONE. This includes those that are timid and are looking for just a place to talk and get to know people in a comfortable environment, and those that like using more colorful dialects to talk and fool around with their buddies. If you feel that is a silly compromise then please let me know as well and I won't ever bring up censorship in the chat again.

Alright then BCF, what are your thoughts?

I just read through what happened. :-\

I have to say I'm very disappointed in some of you furs, the way you acted was very immature and thoughtless. _To me_ it seemed that Lament was being fair and not trying to be some "dictator" but was just reminding everybody of the purpose each group had.

It is VERY clear and straight forward what each groups purpose is to me:

BC Furries: Think about this as a place with a bunch of children around. You wouldn't swear frequently or talk about sexual innuendo's now would you? This should have a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable.

BC Furries 18+: This should be very obvious. Anything that involves anything sexual, gruesomely violent, anything with "adult content" should be discussed in this group.

Now, I don't see how hard it was to simply click on the other group when asked to switch. Most involved had a little temper tantrum of that a 4 year old child would try and pull to get their way. Honestly, you just go to your recent tab (or wherever else you may have it) and select "BC Furries 18+" and continue your perverse conversation there.

All this drama was really unnecessary. Don't blame yourself so much Lament, people just need to step up to the plate more and not be so stubborn/prideful. Being a "rebel" doesn't make things better or make you cool.

: Nibi  November 09, 2012, 01:56:55 -07:00

BC Furries: Think about this as a place with a bunch of children around. You wouldn't swear frequently or talk about sexual innuendo's now would you? This should have a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable.

BC Furries 18+: This should be very obvious. Anything that involves anything sexual, gruesomely violent, anything with "adult content" should be discussed in this group.

This was my expectations, as well. The general BC Furries just for people who want to chat and have a good time. Cussing and other such garbage is unnecessary and unsightly.

Nibi, there was no drama or issues till people decided to "white knight" it up and MAKE things an issue, no one was being a "Rebel" or trying to do any of that as some act of furry bravado as you might think. (if party (A) is just having fun and party (B) comes up and gets huffy about it, party (A) is just instantly cause drama?) I guess you skipped/ blocked out the part of that conversation where a particular individual took to just trying to mute people right off the word go and figured using a condescending tone was the way to "get through to people" instead of just having a level say about it. I still stand firmly by my words that being the people we are (furries) other furries just having a laugh and talking with a little mature language should not be met by threats of muting and banning and people just having mini break downs cause they can't handle any sort of conversation or emotion that isn't happy or just cuddle RPs, To me that seems far less mature and a bit socially stunted, same goes for people who take the opportunity to play "white knight" over such a trivial thing as others just having a fun conversation.

Now as for my take on the issue as a whole, if people really want to divide the local furry community by age and mentality, why not just go all the way with it instead of just trying to censor some "naughty" words and leave the other doors open? If mature and scary words are not allowed, or discussion about any such topic, then I would assume that there is also no talk permitted about Religion, Politics, Most news stories and if you want to go for a stretch.. Most peoples bad days at work. As these all can contain strong opinions or harsh situations which some people may be unable to handle on a social level. There is honestly stuff way worse out there than sex toys and pot, I am rather disappointed that topics as mild as that have people just losing their composure, there is just no rational need for that level of stigma.  :roll:

Note I was not there when this happened but I just read through.

"Socks are like condoms, only good when you are shoving that apendage up someones ass"
I quoted this because this is what I believe Lament was initially referring to when he asked people to stop. This is not intelligent discussion. This does not belong in the non 18+ chat.

It is my understanding that everyone involved in the chat was also in the 18+ chat. It is not unreasonable to go have your fun there, as Lament suggested.

Instead people ganged up on him, backed him into a corner, and started exercising their "internet rights" or whatever. I haven't seen this crap since elementary school. Yes he did get frustrated by the end, but he handled things well; he could have just kicked everyone he thought was causing trouble, which is something I probably would have done.

This childish berating that followed was uncalled for, and I'm disappointed in those that took part in the "white knighting", saying things like "...its furs, does it matter?"
I thought we were trying not to propagate those stereotypes. What the hell happened?

All in all, a disappointing evening was had. There are 2 chats: One is for friendly, open discussion so long as it doesn't cross the boundaries of what you'd talk about with acquaintances at a public area. The second, 18+ chat is where you can talk about anything you want, dirty or otherwise. You can still swear from time to time in the first chat and no one will kill you, we just don't want it turning in to a bad rap song.

*Edited some of my smartass comments when I wrote this in a half-sleeping state.*

The bottom line is: There were no rules posted. This is the internet it is assumed to be 18+ with few exceptions: http://www.sesamestreet.org/ (http://www.sesamestreet.org/)  Even when your kid is on a site like that, you monitor them. The Internet is NOT A BABYSITTER.

You want to pull colourful examples of what we were talking about last night? go for it, there is no shortage, and I doubt any of the active 10+ people who were chatting last night would deny saying any of them. But if you're going to pull those examples, they go on every single night with different members all-the-time. The reality of what happened last night was a decently large group of us were chatting status queue and Lament came in swinging the admin hammer after possibly having a bad day at work or something, I dunno. I couldn't say what his mood honestly was, because since I joined the channel several months ago, I've never seen him on-line chatting in the room. Not to say that he isn't on alot, just that I literally never see the guy, and the first time I do he's muting people and handing out warnings and threats.

You spent a bunch of time chatting in private chat immediately following the public argument and the discussion immediately drifted away from the argument back to our topics that we were bantering about before, and the fun was continued for several hours following. Nobody left or complained before the person you attempted to mute logged off (2+ hours later). That tells me that nobody's ears burned off in the room and forced them to leave due to the shock and horror. All-in-all there was 1 person who didn't like the way things were going, and logged during the argument. But none did so after the fact.

So before you go and get on the sympathy train realize the facts:

1) There were arrows slung in both directions that neither party deserved quite frankly, so that's a bit of a wash. It probably seems more harsh coming at you when its from most of the room vs you alone. So I really am sorry if you felt anything was inappropriately directed at you. Please realize that we were all talking to Lament the admin, not Lament the person. And I am certain (at least very hopeful) that the same is true in reverse, that you were acting as an admin, not your personal feelings.

2)

...ignore the rules that have been established (another issue brought up is that these so-called rules have not been exactly written down in anywhere, I've just been reminding people whenever I see activity that is not appropriate, again, this is also my fault) -  JazzyLament

If it isn't written down, how is it established, and how do you expect people to know them?

3) The whole timid people argument is weak. You can't ask a room full of people in real life to not talk loudly or censor their comments and conversation so that a timid/shy person can enjoy themselves, the onus is on that person to observe those around them and learn the social norms and mores of the group and step forward to join in. The same is true (if not more-so) on the internet where they have complete anonymity and no real reason to be shy and socially awkward.

4) I see an 18+ furry room and immediately assume its RPing, not really my dig, but glad it's there for some people, I just like to shoot the shit with friends *shrug* sorry if our topic of choice drifts to things of a sexual nature. On top of which, last night was the first time I'd even heard of that room...You know this is true, because you invited me to join it mid argument.

5) As far as I see it, nothing has to change with regard to the channel, just leave things alone, it was going fine as you admittedly said. I assure you, we didn't just pop out of the woodwork we've all been on and among the most active members at night for months now. Since I joined, this has been the zeitgeist on the channel whenever I see it.

Kyroo

Well this is an unmitigated disaster.

At the end of the day, we all could have handled the situation better... But it seems to me everyone is missing the point of this forum. Its not about Who said what, who's right who's wrong. It seems like to me Lament is not trying to gather the troops so to say. Some people here have decided to to that course of action. However I think the real intention of this is somewhat of a sounding board. Crowd sourcing if you will, the outcome of what is and Isn't acceptable on the chat.

Also on a side note, as for there being 12 year olds in the chat, technically if there knowingly under 13. You require parental concent by law, if there is any identifiable information or for a web chat of the likes.

Now on to what i think the rules should be, I personally thing the only rule really needed is.
"If you wouldn't say it it public, dont say it here."


So everyone stop trying to turn this into a war... Especially if you where not there.

: Mikomi  November 09, 2012, 12:25:02 -07:00

Also on a side note, as for there being 12 year olds in the chat, technically if there knowingly under 13. You require parental concent by law, if there is any identifiable information or for a web chat of the likes.

Now on to what i think the rules should be, I personally thing the only rule really needed is.
"If you wouldn't say it it public, dont say it here."

I wanted to add a little to those two quoted points there. For the first one (and this is really addressed openly to everyone) given the nature of the fandom and how it actually is far from a little kids thing, (in all my 11 years I haven't see many who are THAT young) I see no need for two different chat groups, that's a recipe for elitism, it would be like creating a "wolves of BC" group, its just not a great idea from the start as I see it, It could all too easily lead to people getting egos over being "mature". Simply put, the fandom is no place for that kinda segregation. As for my having something constructive to say on the matter, I think it would have been easier rather than make two groups, make up this list of rules and then sit back trying to keep everyone on a leash, to instead just have one group and post some form of participant discretion warning pretty much like "Warning: This group contains users of all ages, there may be adult language and conversation, proceed at your own discretion." That way people have been warned and a lot of hassle is saved trying to monitor everything.

Now for the second point. (but more of a light hearted take, at least for me, on this one) Now I can't speak for everyone here, but I will say just about anything IRL (to comedic effect) I have no shame in many topics because I see no reason to have shame about them, if I wanted to feel shame about who I am or what entertains me I would have joined some sort of "conservative morals" club and gone back in the closet rather than being in the furry fandom, hell I wouldn't have even been in the fandom this long had that been how I tried to be.  :monocle:

Sweet delicious drama. Mmm mmm :popcorn:

: Zythren  November 09, 2012, 10:50:21 -07:00
Sweet delicious drama. Mmm mmm :popcorn:

I don't need entertainment TV, there's always a new episode on the internets.  :popcorn:

*old man voice* Back in my day when we had drama it was the real drama, none of this labeling everything that happens in the fandom as drama, we had emo kids threatening to leave the fandom due to a lack of cuddles and people jumping down stair cases at conventions because they were not popufur, those were the days *grumbles* Darn yungin furries these days think drama just falls outta trees! I blame their Justin beibers and their rap music and their Calls of Duty with them big flashy explosions *waves cane*

*coughs* let's try and stay on topic yes?

First of all, before I say anything, I'm not going to pretend I'm unbiased in this, I'm heavily leaning to keeping a two channel system.

*deep breath* Okie dokie here we go.

So in response to Kyroo's point 2), about the rules not being written down. Yes I agree fully that those should have been written down perhaps in the same sign up board, like I said, in previous circumstances where I've warned people off the worst we got was a grumble and they soon hopped over to the 18+ channel and continued their conversation. This previous positive experience, along with Nibi, Alloud, and Don's acknowledgement that the system is quite simple to understand helps shift more weight towards including this dynamic along with an initial explanation of the rules in a new signup thread.

In response to 3), I argue against the fact that I can't ask ask a room full of people in 'real life' not to talk loudly or censor their comments. Various social locations have their own rules, and chat rooms are no different. As I previously stated, the goal is to include everyone, and anonymity certainly does not halt people from feeling shy or uncomfortable, especially in our chat since it's more likely for people to physical know one another.

Quick solution to concern number 4): We change the names of the the chat rooms to BC Furries Chat Lounge (This will be the one that will be moderated and users will be encouraged to create, as Nibi says "a nice atmosphere where anybody can enjoy themselves and not feel uncomfortable) and BC Furries Chat Back Room, where anything goes.

In response to Drake's concern about 'elitism' coming about from the creation of two separate groups, I personally see this as a non-issue, considering the formerly 18+ chat has co-existed just fine for quite a while since the inception of the skype chat to begin with. I disagree that it would be like creating a "wolves of BC" group, because we are not excluding anyone. Think of it as two rooms, and you are free to walk in to whichever one you prefer, or even participate in both so long as respect the rules.

The advisory, while a good idea for a single chat room, still presents us with the problem that it excludes those who want a comfortable environment in which to chat casually with and get to know other furs. The hassle that comes with monitoring can also be avoided if (and while this seems possibly too optimistic) if everyone was on board with the idea of two channel system, and knowing that they have the freedom to express whatever thoughts they have in the "Back Room" will prevent them from purposefully disrupting the "Lounge" channel. The only reason where we would experience an issue is if someone purposefully was knowingly violating the rules and causing a scene, which if this is the case, they would simply be restricted to the "back room".

So in summary, here are the measures I propose we take, feel free to comment and let me know if there is something more any of you would like or anything you'd like to consider changed.

1.) Rename the Chat Rooms "BC Furries Chat Lounge" and "BC Furries Back Room"

2.) Explain on the sign up page that there are two rooms users may join, and they do not have to select one or the other, and give a clear explanation of what the content to expect/is expected of users within the two groups.

3.) Write out explicit and clear rules on the signup page for BC Furries Chat Lounge on what is considered appropriate and not appropriate behavior.

4.) Appoint 2 volunteer moderators to keep watch over the Lounge

Please let me know if this is acceptable, and if there is anything I have overlooked (as it is in fact currently 2:50 AM, so I apologize if I glazed over someone's voiced concern).

Yes, those last two posts sounded good to me. :-3 Rules are definitely the way to go, since people will then have guidelines and know what is and isn't permitted.

(And light swearing was never an issue for me, swearing like a truck driver was more of what I was getting at. XDD )

Honestly just going to say this. If you can't take it, leave. Let people to their devices. Plain and simple.

I'm feeling like a broken record saying this :/

Yes, it's easier, but we are trying to be inclusive, it's good to provide options for people who would not be comfortable otherwise as evidenced in previous posts, and the inclusion of two rooms would do nothing to negatively impact people in the back room or lounge.

In fact you would get your wish. People who can't take the back room, leave. And leave those people to their own devices. Plain and simple.

I've spoken to a few people in private who have shown resistance to the two room dynamic and they feel, at the very least, accepting to the terms I've provided above. I've also received a few PM's from people saying they are content with this as well.

The only thing that might change is the inclusion of moderators. I much rather have self-governance and a few that I have discussed this with agree that is the best way so we don't privilege certain users over others.

I'm waiting until Thursday night to allow people to contact me and voice any concerns, and if all is well by that time I will take those steps.

Honestly doesn't really seem to matter if people voice concerns, you've seen enough examples of those who are concerned by your own admission, and you're going ahead with it anyway. So why ask?

: Kyroo  November 12, 2012, 02:34:51 -07:00
Honestly doesn't really seem to matter if people voice concerns, you've seen enough examples of those who are concerned by your own admission, and you're going ahead with it anyway. So why ask?

Because it's a perfect representation of the way our society works. Those with power or authority only want to pretend that they are interested in what the populace wants. The reality is they have already decided what to do, they just want to placate the masses. Censorship is a plague, freedom of expression is a dying concept and people like this are the executioners. We don't need or want a net nanny deciding what is and is not said. The internet is an automatic 18+ place. If you are unable to handle mature subject matter then find a sesame street chat room to hang out it. It is not societies burden to shelter you from language or subject matter you are not emotionally or psychologically able to process. It's your responsibility to remove yourself from the situations you find uncomfortable. As well you cannot claim to be fighting for inclusiveness and at the same time promote segregation. If you really want to keep a 2 room system (and its clear that you are going to regardless of what any of us say) then it should be a separate room for the the people who can't stomach adult conversations. Those who need to have life filtered for them need to step up for a change instead of calling for internet mommy to come stroke their head and make all the scary words go away. I am an individual, I am not sheeple. You are not the Führer and I don't recognize your self imposed authority.

As a sociology minor, I would've wanted to suggest an analogy of Michel Foucault's panopticon regarding docile bodies, and how we are all in a sense regulated even without the presence of power or authority. Pardon me for demystifying this sense of self-agency, but truly there is none. To form an individual group of ones is to create an authority of one for one. Surely wouldn't the sense of "individualism" be a self-defeating statement unto itself? I don't believe in authority, nor do I believe in individualism. Because in both cases, they are social constructions to me, but I do know adequately on both sides to know when to sympathise and when not to.

Don't worry, Lament, I do sympathize with your concerns. There is an innate sense of order and authority in any milieu, and what you did in terms of bringing the sense of order to light was dutiful. The flak that you deserve, however "deal-with-it" it may be, seem to me more of a case of a sentimental act of shooting the messenger. In terms of how the situation was dealt, I'm afraid since I wasn't there, that's as much as I can offer.

: Tef  November 09, 2012, 11:42:05 -07:00
I don't need entertainment TV, there's always a new episode on the internets.  :popcorn:

This
:popcorn:

(in here I respond to three people, Kyroo, KermodeJay, and Tef. I've highlighted your names in case you just want to read your responses)

Kyroo: It does matter, I created the previous 4 measures in response to your concerns as well as others.

You said that there were no written rules, therefore I stated I would make a post that would contain explicit rules explaining what each room is about and what restrictions would be imposed in the "Lounge Group" in the signup group.

Additionally, you stated that the naming of 18+ made it seems it's one for sexual rp and other things of Adult nature, therefore I proposed we change the names to "Lounge" and "Back Room".

I ask because I actually care, and I do try and offer solutions that would make people happy. I hope that you can come around and see that I'm managing this to the best of my abilities. If I didn't care, I would have just left it to be open, that's a much simpler and easier solution for me to do, it isn't however, the responsible one.

KermodeJay: In response to your concerns about being inclusive but promoting segregation, I think a little clarification is in order.

See, I think there is a little confusion as to how this works. Once somebody signs up, they are already invited to both the Lounge AND the Back Room, these are two groups that are separate from each other. Nobody is segregated, you can talk in the Lounge or you can talk in the Back Room, or both!

Additionally The people that feel that they ABSOLUTELY don't want to be censored can just leave the lounge and talk only in the Back Room, and those who don't want to be involve in the more free and loose conversation in the back room can leave it and only talk in the Lounge. Or if you're like me and don't really mind either way, you can keep both and chat wherever you like whenever you like! It's a very easy thing to manage really.

So basically, if you are even so adamant about it, it can be like the Back Room is the only chat that is available. And you won't ever have to bother with those people that are 'unable to handle mature subject matter'. But of course it would be YOUR choice to segregate yourself from them, not mine.

I hope that now that I've clarified the system you'll be more comfortable with the idea, please let me know if you have any more concerns, and we'll try and work it out okay?

Tef: *thumbs up*?

: JazzyLament  November 12, 2012, 05:45:56 -07:00
Additionally The people that feel that they ABSOLUTELY don't want to be censored can just leave the lounge and talk only in the Back Room, and those who don't want to be involve in the more free and loose conversation in the back room can leave it and only talk in the Lounge. Or if you're like me and don't really mind either way, you can keep both and chat wherever you like whenever you like! It's a very easy thing to manage really

It's not that I don't WANT to be censored. It's that I have the RIGHT not to be. At its inception the room was not established to be a PG room. Therefor it is inherently a 18+ place like everything on the internet. It is not right to change it after the fact. The complexity or lack there of of having to switch back and forth between chats is irrelevant. If you feel that you ABSOLUTELY need to be censored then create a new chat room that is established from the beginning to be PG.

There's a furry Skype chat?

Fine, you say you want to hear us? I'll contribute then.

I could care less about rules in a chatroom as I have previously stated. I brought up the rules only because the imaginary things were thrown at us.

KermodeJay is absolutely correct. This room has always been ruleless and it is tacitley implied to be a use at own discression area. For you to make the change to force the "back room" as you put it, *cough* back of bus, as a secondary or alternative option is not a very desirable solution considering its just lose-lose for the pro freedom of speech crowd. It literally says to us "you are wrong but here is a consolation prize to shut you up".

Counter proposal: bcfurries skype room remains in its current state, and we create a room called "can't handle the heat muffin?"

It doesn't sound nice when the roles are reversed does it? Nobody wants to be the "other room". And thats the wall youre running in to. Call it whatever you want, but thats whats getting under peoples skin. You have adked them to give up a place they (myself included) frequent and trade down for something less than they already had. All because you happened to be actually in the room one of the hundreds of times per month those discussions happen and chose this as a worthy battle.
The proof is in the fact that it took so long for this to happen. I bet you wont refute how often it goes on, because you know we have no reason to lie when we tell you its all-the-time.

Btw quit saying you invited everyone to both channels at the same time. Because we all got invited for the first time the other night. (We being the people involved that night) and not one of us had even heard of the "18+" room.

And I don't for one minute believe you don't care about the chat room. You would have taken the path of least resistance if that were true.

I do believe you feel like you are backed into a corner and are intent on defending your position at this point. I will echo Drake and say you are being a white knight. As noble as your intents are, nobody asked to be saved from the big red dragon.

: KermodeJay  November 12, 2012, 08:28:33 -07:00
It's not that I don't WANT to be censored. It's that I have the RIGHT not to be. At its inception the room was not established to be a PG room. Therefor it is inherently a 18+ place like everything on the internet. It is not right to change it after the fact. The complexity or lack there of of having to switch back and forth between chats is irrelevant. If you feel that you ABSOLUTELY need to be censored then create a new chat room that is established from the beginning to be PG.

Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want. JazzyLament is taking the userbase's concerns into account, which is great, since they are under no obligation to in the first place. The fact that they're willing to work with users to find solutions the majority is happy with is a very good sign. (Also, there's no age requirement for using the internet. And people who prefer not to encounter highly explicit content in a presumably PG-13 chat are not in need of 'internet mommies', they simply have different preferences than you do.)

If it's really that hard to not use the disputed sort of language, people can take it to the back room. It's not causing any major inconvenience for them and it's not stifling their ability to be heard in any way, and it helps the people who just want a more relaxed chatroom to feel comfortable.

(Also, I wrote this before the last two replies. Don't have the energy to make this any longer at the moment.)

: Tosca  November 12, 2012, 10:53:48 -07:00
Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want.

Good lord, a thousand times this. The "right to free speech" is not something you get to use as a bludgeon in the context of a private space.

Ugh, am I the only one who feels that this has been blown way out of proportion? I honestly thought the first page solved everything in this thread. xD

Anywho I'll also quote this because this is also how I feel, well said:

: Tosca  November 12, 2012, 10:53:48 -07:00
Okay, I've been staying out of this so far, BUT. You have no 'right' to not be moderated; it is a private chatroom and the owner of said chat can enforce whatever rules they want.

If this was my Steam Group for Furries I would have not tolerated any of this at all and it's actually making me want to write some rules for it now. I never realized how crazy people could be about wanting to have "freedom of speech" in a group they were invited to that was created by someone else. I would have gave you one warning, made sure you fully understood what was expected and how you should behave and if you still went against everything I said, I would have kicked you. No ifs, ands or buts. I really have to admire you Lament for being so patient. xD;;; I couldn't do it.

Alrighty then, I believe a few deep breaths and a couple of steps back are in order for all involved, here.

As someone who does not use the chat feature, might I offer a bit of unbiased perspective?

I believe that there are solid points on both sides of this argument, and that both sides fully believe in what they are saying. However, I think frustration and irritation are playing a major role in this conversation spiralling into a rather heated argument. Rather than fight and have to deal with the extra anger, let's try to find a reasonably satisfying solution. The end result may not be perfect for everyone, but hopefully it is satisfactory to the majority.

My personal thought would be this; tweak the existing groups slightly to better accomodate everyone. However, rather than turn the rooms into a kiddies room and an adult only room, why not make one room "Good Clean Fun" and the other "Everything else"? By doing it that way there is no age segregation, and each person is free to decide whether they want to chat in the clean room, or in the all purpose room.

Every person has moods where they just want to talk about serious, silly, mature, childrens (etc) things, and for those of us who have a hard time editing our language (of which I am very guilty), we'll just automatically choose the all purpose room. For those who are easily offended, or would just rather avoid rough language and topics of a sexual nature, they can choose to head to the clean one. No harm, no foul on either side of the road.

From a personal stand point, I enjoy a good conversation about dongs as much as the next person, but there are some times when I would just really love to talk seriously about what's happening in the world, or about a topic of sincere interest that is perhaps not suited to vulgarity or sarcasm.

Just my two cents.

Firstly, Thank you Tosca, Silvermink, and Nibi for addressing that for me, it's something that I have had difficulty finding a way to put into perspective without sounding like a dictator a certain furs unfortunately seem to think I am...

sooooo back to Kyroo~

Kyroo: I believe most of your worries would be answered by the reply I made to KermodeJay, I would appreciate if you took the time to read through it, then came back and talked to me if you still have any issues.

But in summary, there is no superior or inferior group. Both groups existed at the same time, or to be accurate, the 18+ group was made probably about three weeks after the original group was made. The Back Room isn't to imply it's inferior, it's to imply it's private, like your own executive suite, with champagne and erotic dancers that everyone is welcome to enjoy and may freely enter and leave at their will. There is no "other room", that notion is of your own creation. I personally used the 18+ board more than the other one because I myself like having a little more freedom with my speech, I usually check in to the original one if there is an interesting conversation, so, no there isn't much role reversal when both are equal.

Yes you are correct, initially I did not invite people to both, only if they requested it, however this will change on Thursday and everyone will be made aware of the existence of.

I never asked you are your friends to give up their place. You are welcome to both so long as the rules in the one with them are respected. Again, please take note that I did not kick any of you from the group because I realized there was a misunderstanding.

Again, there's more on the dynamics of the two groups and how they work together in my reply to KermodeJay's comments, and I implore that you read them.

You seem to still be sour of the original incident, and I have tried to apologize for it, as it was largely due to my poor job in administrating and setting up the board, the reason we are having this discussion is to move beyond that and establish a better community, I hope you can see that and can help us build something better.

bloodredrul: Thank you very much for that, hopefully people will take the time to read your post as it has a very nice and unbiased logic that's easy to follow.

Also, your idea for a "Good Clean Fun" and "Everything else" is precisely the dynamic that I'm going for with my suggestion "BC Furries Lounge" and "BC Furries Back Room". I'm actually thinking perhaps we should put it to a vote so and see what names the community wants to call it since Kyroo seems to have an issue with any name I suggest XD

That could be fun even!

I think the real fact of the matter is that when it comes to rules, there really is nothing solid, using Nibi's thoughts about that steam group as an example here. People can change rules on a whim and it really leaves such room for god-moding, especially if multiple people are left to be "mods" based on just being friends of said group owner. I have seen numerous groups and forums fall from that one issues right there. People start creating some base rules, then they get more uppity about WHO uses their group or WHAT they talk about in the group regardless of "maturity" or their attempts to claim such a label as their own. It just becomes a mess once you start really splitting hairs. I still feel one all encompassing group with a "viewer discretion" warning would be better than two groups ultimately, less chaos, less net nannying, and less mod-friends.

I honestly gotta still agree with the notion that the internet is by default adult in nature and it is the duty of the individual to stay away from what they do not like, I cannot simply waltz into some shock-sight and get all morally offended and start telling them to take down their sight because I happened to wander into it and I personally don't agree with it. In any conservation like that I would be told to bug off and quit being such a whiner. Its a tough fact of life that everyone is gonna have to swallow at some point, the world does not moderate or stop for just one person and their issues, its up to the individual to use common sense and go "hey.. I don't like these people/ what they are saying, I am just keeping clear of that because that's not my thing." If anything I see that as being more mature than taking some big dramatic pseudo moral stance about how we gotta cover up everything and protect people from reality.

Lament you're trying to play politics, you are REALLY bad at it, and its disgusting.

First and foremost, quit implying that people who are against your arguments aren't reading your answers...They are, your answers clearly are not satisfying everyone how you want them to though. That is just a sad little attempt to quietly push people into believing those who are not behind you are ignorant and intentionally remaining blind to the issues, clearly not the case.

Secondly, don't try to suck and blow at the same time: Trying to be good guy Greg and make everyone happy, while simultaneously slinging accusations that I [or others] "...seem to still be sour of the original incident" or when you say "...since Kyroo seems to have an issue with any name I suggest" which, if YOU had actually read my text really had nothing to do with my point.

Your problem appears to be that you're either not reading my text for its intended purpose, or you are cherry picking my entries apart to use as ammunition like some kind of religious zealot trying to quote me Leviticus.

Counter proposal: bcfurries skype room remains in its current state, and we create a room called "can't handle the heat muffin?"

It doesn't sound nice when the roles are reversed does it? Nobody wants to be the "other room". And thats the wall youre running in to.

This first sentence is called satire. We as the human race use it to point out humorous and sometimes ridiculous idiosyncrasies. IF you actually believed the original intent of that sentence was to be taken as literal...you have larger issues to concern yourself with than the name of the chat room...So I give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you're cherry picking from it.
Second sentence is where we cast aside all doubt as to the purpose of the comment/suggestion and it is quite evident that I'm starting to spin the satire into a more constructive point. Note that the only attack is made via the actual name of the room I proposed. This is done by design. I'm trying to show you what it looks like from the other person's shoes. The purpose of the paragraph is to suggest why you are going to run into problems if you continue to do nothing beyond write down some rules and invite people to an alternative channel.

We are all very well aware that your NEW plan is to do this, the reason it keeps getting fired back at you is because you did NOT take these steps earlier and continued (until now) to act as though it was this way all along. This is what we call "Bullshit" and I'm sorry, but you did get called on it. This is now a dead point, I won't revisit this on you again since it is now solved.

Finally, to Nibi whoever you are, you weren't even around for this (nor have you even got an account on the channel in skype. At very least with your forum name) but you seem to have lots to say on the matter: Because some person decides to take it upon themselves to be the moderator of a self appointed position on a random chat channel that caters to the crowd of a site they have no connection to beyond membership does not give them carte blanche to impose rules at random on people who use the channel.

If I have a peanut allergy it isn't my right to go into Tim Horton's and demand they shut down all peanut operations so I can safely enjoy my coffee. It's my responsibility to find a safe place to enjoy my coffee, or avoid the damned nut. The rest of the world is not going to cease and desist their conversations because you find them inappropriate, pick your crap up, and move it to somewhere you don't have to listen to it.

*edits made cleared up some grammatical errors and a few clarifications on who I was addressing*

: Drake Wingfire  November 13, 2012, 01:28:41 -07:00
"hey.. I don't like these people/ what they are saying, I am just keeping clear of that because that's not my thing."

The two-chat system helps with this. Rather than having those that are uncomfortable with a given discussion just leave all-together, they have another spot they can go to and chat about something else. By having a single chat with a "viewer discretion" where people are encouraged to just leave when they feel uncomfortable, it becomes less inclusive and that doesn't seem all that fair.

: Kyroo  November 13, 2012, 03:08:46 -07:00
The rest of the world is not going to cease and desist their conversations because you find them inappropriate, pick your crap up, and  move it to somewhere you don't have to listen to it.

Which is why a two chat system is proposed.

We're talking about a non-official chat group here. The entire incident has been blown waaay out of proportion.

Lay out some ground rules and then people will stop complaining because then there is clear guidelines and if they don't follow the rules that's their own problem. Much less painful that way. I personally thought it was very straight forward the way it was: we want to include everyone and their interests, so if you like chatting about NSFW and whatnot then keep it to the 18+ chat, because sorry to say not everyone wants to hear what toys you just got on BD or what you did with your mate the other night. It's pretty straightforward, and you know, it's nice to be respectful of others' space too. Not everyone in the fandom is here for the 18+ material.

The split between the two chats, in my experience, has never been a problem. I've had issues with individuals trying to get "frisky" with me in rp before when I've clearly stated that I did not want to, but other then that the groups have been fine. I really don't see what the issue is other then a lack of clarity to the structure.

Lament: don't just sit there on your paws and whistle while trying to figure it out. You'll just make the problem even worse. Any decision made is bound to not satisfy everyone, but it's a private space and in the end it's your say. Others are entirely capable of making their own private spaces to do whatever they want in if they don't like the structure. The chat seemed to be working fine for the majority of us.

Problem solved, I've got a new chat room called "BC Paws & Claws" so it has no affiliation with BC Furries as I have no permission from the admins to use their name.

The room will be open concept no moderation of chat beyond whatever the current people in the room bitch at you for  :P

If you want an invite, just look for BC Paws & Claws, or message me on skype "kyroo_roo". As people join I will add administrator rights so anyone can invite anyone.

Details to follow later today in a separate thread.

*facepaws*

So basically you made a room where everyone is free to talk about whatever they like.

Which is exactly what I was doing.

*sigh*

By the way, you don't need to give 'admin rights', everyone can invite anyone by default, that was how it was like in the original chat. Pretty sure I mentioned that in the sign up page.

I'm taking Drekian's advice, check general boards for rules and sign up.

: JazzyLament  November 13, 2012, 01:41:59 -07:00
*facepaws*

So basically you made a room where everyone is free to talk about whatever they like.

Which is exactly what I was doing.

*sigh*

By the way, you don't need to give 'admin rights', everyone can invite anyone by default, that was how it was like in the original chat. Pretty sure I mentioned that in the sign up page.

I'm taking Drekian's advice, check general boards for rules and sign up.

The difference is in the way he handled it. Kyroo made a room that people want to be in rather then one that they were shoved into by someone who never had any right to in the first place.

I'm with kyroo on this. I think its more the fact that we would rather have control of the chat. So we know the rules won't be added out of knowhwere and everyone can feel free and welcome.

As much as I like lament I'm going with kyroo on this, if you would rather not join that's cool.

I didn't shove people in that room hey were created at the same time even I use the 18+ chat more than the normal one >.<

Seriously, I'm running out of ways to say this. I already signed up for Kyroo's since it's pointless to argue, for me it doesn't make a difference who runs it.

This isn't a presidential election it's a chat room that I'm trying to provide you don't have to like it or not. If he wants to make another room that's fine by me, I'll join.

Specially if Mikomi is there :3

I don't see the point in it but hey wherever my friends are that's where I'll go.

updated BC Furs Lounge/Back Room here: http://www.bcfurries.com/forum/index.php?topic=5809.msg81503#msg81503 (http://www.bcfurries.com/forum/index.php?topic=5809.msg81503#msg81503)