BC Furries

To some on this forums this will not be a new issue. To all on this forums this is an issue that has never been properly addressed.

At every furry event, there is a small number of particular people filming away.

And yet the footage is never posted. Halloween was in October, six months ago. None of the footage was posted.

Elektrofuzz 2? No footage posted.

Far more people are filming video and taking pictures than are posting. I have to question their motives. At least one of these "filmographers" has had complaints about creeping female furries out. Without going into particulars those involved know the issues.

Why do we let this go on? What's the point of having these people at our events? They make at least a small number of people uncomfortable and absolutely nothing comes of it.

I call on event organizers to deal with this issue. The pussyfooting around this issue the last time it came up accomplished nothing but creating yet another outlet for the standard cavalcades of "people should be free to do whatever they want."

What I propose is that event organizers require people taking film/pictures to be vetted by the organizers. Anyone else filming can GTFO. The people vetted should be required to release their final footage in some sort of timely manner.

I was curious about this as well. The people filming these events are actual furries aren't they? Or are they spies trying to tarnish the local famdom's good name?  :o

I will speak saying that some of the people that have taken film/photos HAVE posted their media in a timely manner!! These are my favorite "filmographers"!!

UNIVADED painstakingly goes through all the pictures he takes and edits them to perfection then posts them within weeks of the event! He then makes a post saying that he has uploaded them and he tries to notify the subjects of his pictures!!(I have been on the receiving end of it!)

KHEETAH/BABY CHEETAH went through a recent loss of data stored on one of his hard drives that had TONS of footage from events. Unfortunately some of it was lost. :( He also works a very time consuming job in which he can't sink the HOURS needed to edit footage for some of our smaller events. When he does finish editing his footage he uploads it to youtube and he lets everyone know by posting a link in the original thread for the even or he links the footage through twitter!

TAI also posts his pictures rather quickly and lets people know by posting in the thread for the event.


As for other "filmographers" I don't know.

Is this aimed to people in any way? Cause I was just deeply offended by this.

I've been in the community since 2009, and Univaded and Kheetah are two of my closest friends now. I may not be close to anyone else, but it doesn't mean I'm not part of the community.

I realize "The Dependent" article stirred up some nerves, so this had to be questioned. But I can say this to set the record straight right now: I have no intentions of freely releasing any of my footage to others I don't trust to risk it to be used for fandom attack purposes. I have no personal intentions for this neither.

I may be studying news and media, but that doesn't automatically mean I'm a suspect neither. Because of BCIT, I also have a usually busy schedule and won't always have the time to work on making videos.

Again, to some, I could still be perceived as a stranger. However, I would never want to lose the trust of the entire community by allowing my footage to do bad the image of the community.

As for specific bad social ties, that does not need to be brought up on a public forum, let alone mentioned at this point.

People taking pictures and video is something that scares me about cons... and is partially why I haven't been. I don't like being captured on film and I know it would be inevitable at a convention or large meet.

: Ember  March 29, 2012, 09:37:05 -06:00
To some on this forums this will not be a new issue. To all on this forums this is an issue that has never been properly addressed.

At every furry event, there is a small number of particular people filming away.

And yet the footage is never posted. Halloween was in October, six months ago. None of the footage was posted.

Elektrofuzz 2? No footage posted.

Far more people are filming video and taking pictures than are posting. I have to question their motives. At least one of these "filmographers" has had complaints about creeping female furries out. Without going into particulars those involved know the issues.

Why do we let this go on? What's the point of having these people at our events? They make at least a small number of people uncomfortable and absolutely nothing comes of it.

I call on event organizers to deal with this issue. The pussyfooting around this issue the last time it came up accomplished nothing but creating yet another outlet for the standard cavalcades of "people should be free to do whatever they want."

What I propose is that event organizers require people taking film/pictures to be vetted by the organizers. Anyone else filming can GTFO. The people vetted should be required to release their final footage in some sort of timely manner.

What do you define as filming? Is the person holding their iPhone camera recording something funny filming or are you talking about someone carrying around a more sofisticated batch of equipment? Are you suggesting that all recording devices should be prohibited from events other than approved recording sources?

No one is oblidged to post media they record. A personal recording is just that, a personal recording. It's nice when people post it, but if they don't such is their perogative. As long as they aren't doing anything illegal in both the recording and the usage of the footage then really nothing should bar them from recording it either.

As a disclaimer, I don't record or photograph at any event, but I am perfectly fine with other people filming as long as they are considerate and are not breaking rules.

: Ember  March 29, 2012, 09:37:05 -06:00
Far more people are filming video and taking pictures than are posting. I have to question their motives. At least one of these "filmographers" has had complaints about creeping female furries out. Without going into particulars those involved know the issues.

Why do we let this go on? What's the point of having these people at our events? They make at least a small number of people uncomfortable and absolutely nothing comes of it.

I feel like some of this hostility has been leveled at me, and I'm a little hurt by it.

I took photos and videos with my camera at the February bowlmeet (my first event) mostly to prove to myself that I had actually been there. Only 1 of those photos (of Fazar, in suit) ended up online. At the February dinnermeet a took a few group shots as people were getting ready to leave. I didn't ask all of you for permission beforehand, and now I realize I may have overstepped myself; I apologize if this made you uncomfortable. None of those photos will ever end up online. But people who don't know about my furry side (and who would probably prefer not to know) sometimes ask what my friends are like, and I wanted a few "safe" pictures to show if the topic ever came up.

I don't think the issue is whether footage and photos end up online, but rather the content of said footage and photos, and whether that violates others' wishes for privacy.

: zenia  March 30, 2012, 03:06:49 -06:00
People taking pictures and video is something that scares me about cons... and is partially why I haven't been. I don't like being captured on film and I know it would be inevitable at a convention or large meet.

This is precisely why I've been careful to focus on fursuiters when I take pictures. Furry events are chaotic, and inevitably there are non-suiters who sneak into the background. In these cases the photo either gets cropped or it never ends up online. If I haven't met you, and I haven't asked your permission, I won't post it. Period. If you find yourself in one of my photos and you'd rather protect your privacy, by all means let me know and I'll take it down.

I usually don't end up posting my pictures because I'm lazy and I hate postprocessing, personally. I rarely end up posting my pictures from anywhere. I'd be pretty annoyed if I was told I needed special permission just to capture memories from an event I'd attended just because I'm not taking them to post somewhere.

: Renwaldo  March 30, 2012, 01:15:12 -06:00
I was curious about this as well. The people filming these events are actual furries aren't they? Or are they spies trying to tarnish the local famdom's good name?  :o

I assume you're joking. If not, your tinfoil hat is slipping there.

I would suggest that for those who do film at events, post them on this forum which is where they should be posted ... that's what this forum is for, among other things. If you are posting them on youtube I do believe that you are able to keep them to friends only and not public. If you do post publicly they try to make sure you do not post RL faces with out permission from that person, fur suited people should be ok with the postings as long as done in good taste. The anonymity  of the fur suit does make a difference. As for people attending furry events, they must try to understand that they may be photographed, the photographer/filmographer should try to respect the fact some do not want to be filmed.

If you are attending an event, have someone filming and do not know that person, then ask ... if you don't like the response you get the it is recommended that you talk to on of the event organizers and ask them to check it out.

I do not believe that the statements of concern about photography  and such are aimed at anyone in particular. As a courtesy if you are going to film or take photos, please take into account that there may be some that don't want photos. This is just my opinion and thoughts.

Coal Silvermuzle

Ember, would i be correct in assuming that you're talking specifically about furs with higher quality recording devices, not the average fur with a pocket panasonic camera, or an iphone/etc?

if so, then yes, i agree 100% with you.

Keetah, Univaded and Tai are all FANTASTIC when it comes to posting footage, but there are a few furs who film entire events, and post nothing. which, to be honest, i (like many others) find offsetting.

While we're on this topic, i would like to add that i have asked particular furs to STOP filming me for specifically this reason, and while it's worked for a few months, the warning seems to have worn off. so yes, i agree, perhaps event organizers should be a little more firm in this regard; ie. you've been warned/asked repeatedly and you continue to do this, so now you're being asked to leave/are not part of this event. please go away.

(yes, i do realize that it's also up to the individual to address the issue, however, there are only so many times a person can beat their head against a wall. Sometimes, people just don't -get it-.)

I haven't been able to find any footage of Howloween or Electrofuzz 2, despite there being 5 or 6 high end camera's being around while I ran the lighting equipment. I've been specifically hunting for footage of my setup so I can see how it looks from an outside perspective and make improvements to the rigging and effects usage. My fog machine use is a perfect example, I can't really see how much is in the air when I have all the lights overhead and camera's are pretty good at catching that sort of thing, lol

: Silvermink  March 30, 2012, 10:40:48 -06:00

I assume you're joking. If not, your tinfoil hat is slipping there.

Only partially. I don't think it's ridiculous to worry about that sort of thing, it has happened before.

: Master Coal  March 30, 2012, 11:07:51 -06:00make sure you do not post RL faces with out permission from that person, fur suited people should be ok with the postings as long as done in good taste.

I agree with this. If I was a fursuiter, I would be totally ok with being in pictures or in videos... but since I am not, I don't. :P

Whenever I do post, I password protect all my fur related videos and limit where I post it to this forum. I'm abiding by those rules.

I'm still getting the feeling this attack is heavily targeted. For everyone's sake, let's not mention any specifics.

without mentioning specifics,

i would like to clarify that those posting videos and photos that here on the forums should be posting on specific threads (for example, bowling picture links on the Fursuit Bowling Pictures thread. ElektroFuzz pictures on the current ElektroFuzz thread, etc), rather than obscure locations within the forum. Post where the people attending will logically look.

may I suggest we ask other events like RF etc etc or even ask another portion of the furdom say from cali what they did for this situation. take a page from their books and apply it to our events.

I have a high expectation that they will all say "No Media." That is most likely what will have to happen here. Big media outlets will have to get shut out instead of being allowed to have an open media policy. We just can't risk allowing another (for example) tabloid to do what was done to lay damage on the fandom.

Frankly, I was honestly not expecting any media to show up at VancouFur, so the local stations caught me by surprise.

There's the other side of the coin though. People like Kheetah and BBF have production quality cameras, but at the same time aren't part of the media. Does that make them spies? No. And that's like judging a book by it's cover.

: FurryJackman  April 01, 2012, 06:20:50 -06:00
I have a high expectation that they will all say "No Media." That is most likely what will have to happen here. Big media outlets will have to get shut out instead of being allowed to have an open media policy. We just can't risk allowing another (for example) tabloid to do what was done to lay damage on the fandom.

Ever thought you might be taking this a little too seriously?

: Silvermink  April 01, 2012, 11:35:48 -06:00
Ever thought you might be taking this a little too seriously?

there's another thread specifically pertaining to this issue, Silvermink. let's not get off-topic here.

Jackman; i believe the general concern is for furries -within- the BC Furs who use high quality video recorders (or any video recording, for that matter) or high quality cameras, and do not post their results. BBF, Keetah and Univaded are wonderful examples of furries who DO NOT hoard their footage; the make it public it as soon as time allows. the current concern is certain furries who take equal amounts of footage and DO NOT post it, (or perhaps post -very- little, and in obscure locations without notifying the subjects). I'll add to this my own concern regarding certain furs filming individuals who have explicitly asked them -not- to.

i think Sairys is on to something; why not ask RF (or one of the locals who volunteers there (*cough*AphinityTrappaTorwinLoialCOUNTLESSOTHERS*cough*) what their policy is on high quality cameras/recording devices. this seems like perfectly sound logic to me. they are a successful convention, and may have some good ideas for us. but we should keep in mind; the majority of our events are -not- conventions, meaning that different rules may apply. for instance, cons have a very strict policy regarding collars and leashes; the wearer must carry their own leash, whereas at events like bowling, we know this is not the case. at the very least, asking RF will give some ideas for possible solutions.

: Apoxon  April 01, 2012, 12:08:53 -06:00
there's another thread specifically pertaining to this issue, Silvermink. let's not get off-topic here.

Jackman; i believe the general concern is for furries -within- the BC Furs who use high quality video recorders (or any video recording, for that matter) or high quality cameras, and do not post their results. BBF, Keetah and Univaded are wonderful examples of furries who DO NOT hoard their footage; the make it public it as soon as time allows. the current concern is certain furries who take equal amounts of footage and DO NOT post it, (or perhaps post -very- little, and in obscure locations without notifying the subjects). I'll add to this my own concern regarding certain furs filming individuals who have explicitly asked them -not- to.

i think Sairys is on to something; why not ask RF (or one of the locals who volunteers there (*cough*AphinityTrappaTorwinLoialCOUNTLESSOTHERS*cough*) what their policy is on high quality cameras/recording devices. this seems like perfectly sound logic to me. they are a successful convention, and may have some good ideas for us. but we should keep in mind; the majority of our events are -not- conventions, meaning that different rules may apply. for instance, cons have a very strict policy regarding collars and leashes; the wearer must carry their own leash, whereas at events like bowling, we know this is not the case. at the very least, asking RF will give some ideas for possible solutions.

That concern is even more silly though. People could be using the footage for learning purposes, so they can get better at their art form, and learn how to use their camera better?  Or maybe they just have full time jobs and havent had time to think about the images they have captured. This just seems like a paranoid delusion that someone is out to get us.

Edit: Also its Photographer or Videographer. Not Filmographer, Filmography is making comprehensive lists of movies into specific categories. >.>

: Mikomi  April 01, 2012, 12:37:31 -06:00
That concern is even more silly though. People could be using the footage for learning purposes, so they can get better at their art form, and learn how to use their camera better?  Or maybe they just have full time jobs and havent had time to think about the images they have captured. This just seems like a paranoid delusion that someone is out to get us.

Edit: Also its Photographer or Videographer. Not Filmographer, Filmography is making comprehensive lists of movies into specific categories. >.>

does that mean it's okay to film someone without their permission, if they're only practicing? I'm sorry, but i don't feel it does; you need to ask for permission for that sort of thing.

If you're referring to my own concern of being filmed after i've asked -repeatedly- that the photographer/videographer STOP filming me, then i'm apt to question your views on personal boundaries.

: Torwin  March 30, 2012, 11:34:53 -06:00
I haven't been able to find any footage of Howloween or Electrofuzz 2, despite there being 5 or 6 high end camera's being around while I ran the lighting equipment. I've been specifically hunting for footage of my setup so I can see how it looks from an outside perspective and make improvements to the rigging and effects usage. My fog machine use is a perfect example, I can't really see how much is in the air when I have all the lights overhead and camera's are pretty good at catching that sort of thing, lol

Don't forget these guys have jobs, or are in school, and the filming that is done at events is something they do in their spare time.


E Fuzz 2(with minimal searching effort):

http://youtu.be/jmU1m2RiS_E (http://youtu.be/jmU1m2RiS_E)



The issues I have with some of the folks filming is that they get right in my face or get in the way of the suiters as they are not paying attention to the surrounding area or they land themselves in the shot of another video-grapher. I am not going to name names, but if you want to know if I am talking about you, you're welcome to PM me here.

: Ember  March 29, 2012, 09:37:05 -06:00

Why do we let this go on? What's the point of having these people at our events?

What I propose is that event organizers require people taking film/pictures to be vetted by the organizers. Anyone else filming can GTFO. The people vetted should be required to release their final footage in some sort of timely manner.

I agree, but a step farther. I think these events should be strictly "No photography". I'm part of another community and if a flash ever were to go off around one of us I can almost assure that would be a smashed camera. Photographers should be allowed to photograph only if they have permission from everyone in the shot. If they are to be published, they also need to have release forms signed. At a private function like this the attendee's have a right to expect a certain level of privacy. If I were a furry/suiter/whatever I would not want my professional image/identity marred by what I do in my private life. And that is the core of why I think many people will not attend these functions or meetups - There needs to be a high level of discretion.

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 01:36:55 -06:00
I agree, but a step farther. I think these events should be strictly "No photography". I'm part of another community and if a flash ever were to go off around one of us I can almost assure that would be a smashed camera. Photographers should be allowed to photograph only if they have permission from everyone in the shot. If they are to be published, they also need to have release forms signed. At a private function like this the attendee's have a right to expect a certain level of privacy. If I were a furry/suiter/whatever I would not want my professional image/identity marred by what I do in my private life. And that is the core of why I think many people will not attend these functions or meetups - There needs to be a high level of discretion.

Unfortunately, fursuiters seem to have a really hard time being discreet. :P

: Whitefoot  April 01, 2012, 02:10:14 -06:00
Unfortunately, fursuiters seem to have a really hard time being discreet. :P

Haha, well the funny thing with that is that fursuiters get full anonymity. I'd feel safer showing up to a furcon in a full suit than I would in street clothes - No joke.

: Apoxon  April 01, 2012, 12:57:13 -06:00
does that mean it's okay to film someone without their permission, if they're only practicing? I'm sorry, but i don't feel it does; you need to ask for permission for that sort of thing.

If you're referring to my own concern of being filmed after i've asked -repeatedly- that the photographer/videographer STOP filming me, then i'm apt to question your views on personal boundaries.

Well legally in canada, filming or photographing is allowed in public with out consent. (See "Photographers rights"). If its somewhere like a mall or bowling ally for example thats considered public, the owner of the property can remove you if they please for taking photos or any reason for that matter. But it is still legal.
Release forms and permission only need to be filled if it is a private location. Like a house or a hotel room. Ect... and if you are using the photo for publishing.

With that said, in most cases I would stop if i was asked nicely to stop. As most photographers would, But how most people approach the situation is by yelling and being an idiot. If someone does that i would cite them my rights then kindly carry on. Also usually the people getting upset about being photographed, dont realize there not actually in the shot. so maybe the people you're complaining about didn't stop cause they where not filming you.

I mean the only legitimate reason to get this upset about someone filming you in a public space is if your in witness protection.

And to everyone saying i would smash their camera ect, Assuming again this is a public place. you are liable to be charged with assault.

It might be legal, but it doesn't mean it is decent. If someone took, and published, pictures of me without my consent... I'd never come back to the place/event that it happened at.

: zenia  April 01, 2012, 04:03:34 -06:00
It might be legal, but it doesn't mean it is decent. If someone took, and published, pictures of me without my consent... I'd never come back to the place/event that it happened at.

Well like I said most people if you ask nicely and politely, will stop photographing you. If they where in the first place. Also you and everyone else has probably recorded in someway by something like a camera phone or security cameras. And possibly published or uploaded from there. I would be more concerned about the people with out professional equipment.

Also it depends on what you mean by published, usually that would mean published to a magazine or newspaper, but thats probably unlikely in most cases.
However i think the OP was complaining about Not uploading or publishing the photos, but on that argument as well whom ever took the footage is probaby just busy with having a life to even touching what they have recorded.

Edit: Also as its been said already, but what about the people that just want to record an event for there own personal memory.
I also think people may have personal reasons to not be filmed or photographed, some may be legitimate, some are downright paranoid. But you kind of have to throw out the expectation of privacy once you enter the public world.

everything should work out fine but idk about me bc im so confused about shit right now

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 01:36:55 -06:00
I agree, but a step farther. I think these events should be strictly "No photography". I'm part of another community and if a flash ever were to go off around one of us I can almost assure that would be a smashed camera. Photographers should be allowed to photograph only if they have permission from everyone in the shot. If they are to be published, they also need to have release forms signed. At a private function like this the attendee's have a right to expect a certain level of privacy. If I were a furry/suiter/whatever I would not want my professional image/identity marred by what I do in my private life. And that is the core of why I think many people will not attend these functions or meetups - There needs to be a high level of discretion.

I don't think you're going to see any convention start requiring people to get permission and releases from anyone in any picture they took for any purpose. A lot of people take pictures to remember and share the event, and my opinion (and, I'd be willing to bet, the prevailing opinion) is that that should be allowed. I also think most of the people who don't attend are just shy in general and aren't specifically freaked out by the possibility of ending up in pictures, but of course I'm speculating as much as you are.

And, as Mikomi says, it's perfectly legal. If you really want to guarantee you don't end up in anyone's pictures, your only real remedy is not to come. Even rules wouldn't stop everyone.

: Silvermink  April 01, 2012, 05:23:59 -06:00
I don't think you're going to see any convention start requiring people to get permission and releases from anyone in any picture they took for any purpose. A lot of people take pictures to remember and share the event, and my opinion (and, I'd be willing to bet, the prevailing opinion) is that that should be allowed. I also think most of the people who don't attend are just shy in general and aren't specifically freaked out by the possibility of ending up in pictures, but of course I'm speculating as much as you are.

And, as Mikomi says, it's perfectly legal. If you really want to guarantee you don't end up in anyone's pictures, your only real remedy is not to come. Even rules wouldn't stop everyone.

No, I don't think everyone is going to go around getting releases signed, but if they are intending on publishing them (News, article, blog, whatever) then getting a release signed is a good idea. It's not necessary, but it is to protect the photographer not the one who's photograph is being taken. If the pictures are published without permission, that opens the photographer up to being sued. How would the court rule? Who knows, it depends on a lot of things. A release is just a safety net. On the other hand if the event specified no photography then a photographer would really need to watch his step. A quick google turned up this:

Criminal Code of Canada, 162. (1): ("Criminal Voyeurism")
Every one commits an offence who, surreptitiously, observes – including by mechanical or electronic means – or makes a visual recording of a person who is in circumstances that give rise to a reasonable expectation of privacy

Saying all this, I understand that this is one of those things that people will want to take photographs of, and if you are worried someone might see you and that bugs you... Going to one of these things is a bad idea. There is a good chance I would bump into someone I know from outside of the random at one of these things so having my face on some random persons blog would be the least of my worries :)

There are two issues at hand here that were brought up both by the starting post and those within the thread. Both of these are very much opposing of each other:

1) People record things that have a variety of people in it, some of which who may not wish to be recorded

2) People want others to post everything they record at events else they become suspicious of why it is being recorded

As you can see, we have an impasse here.

If someone is going to record and publish, we are saying they should get permission of everyone in the shot. Given this is probably feasibly impossible at times, it is rather unfair to have the notion that if you record you should be posting your media publicly and be suspicious of those who do not.

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 06:48:38 -06:00
No, I don't think everyone is going to go around getting releases signed, but if they are intending on publishing them (News, article, blog, whatever) then getting a release signed is a good idea. It's not necessary, but it is to protect the photographer not the one who's photograph is being taken. If the pictures are published without permission, that opens the photographer up to being sued. How would the court rule? Who knows, it depends on a lot of things. A release is just a safety net. On the other hand if the event specified no photography then a photographer would really need to watch his step. A quick google turned up this:

Criminal Code of Canada, 162. (1): ("Criminal Voyeurism")
Every one commits an offence who, surreptitiously, observes – including by mechanical or electronic means – or makes a visual recording of a person who is in circumstances that give rise to a reasonable expectation of privacy

Saying all this, I understand that this is one of those things that people will want to take photographs of, and if you are worried someone might see you and that bugs you... Going to one of these things is a bad idea. There is a good chance I would bump into someone I know from outside of the random at one of these things so having my face on some random persons blog would be the least of my worries :)

They cant sue you if it was taken in a public place unless said person was making money off the photo., "Criminal Voyeurism" Is not what where talking about here. "makes a visual recording of a person who is in circumstances that give rise to a reasonable expectation of privacy" A reasonable expectation of privacy would not apply to someone taking a photo of another person in a public space.


Photographers Rights in Canada Do's and Don'ts

Things you cannot do:

Misrepresent someone in a slanderous way through photography or captions accompanying photographs.

Photograph people in their homes, or in spaces where they have a 'reasonable expectation of privacy,' such as public bathrooms.
Trespass, especially at night.

Take photos "that could be considered national secrets, interfere with a large number of Canadian's lives, impair or threaten the Canadian Forces, national security or intelligence."

Things you can do:

Take photos for non-commercial use in nearly any public space.

Photograph and publish photos of anyone, aside from young offenders, who are "newsworthy, doing newsworthy things, or are public figures or celebrities."

"It is not against copyright law to take a photo of any architectural work, for example, a building, or a permanent piece of public art."

: Mikomi  April 01, 2012, 12:37:31 -06:00
People could be using the footage for learning purposes, so they can get better at their art form, and learn how to use their camera better?  Or maybe they just have full time jobs and havent had time to think about the images they have captured.

: Pat The Fox  April 01, 2012, 06:57:23 -06:00
There are two issues at hand here that were brought up both by the starting post and those within the thread. Both of these are very much opposing of each other:

1) People record things that have a variety of people in it, some of which who may not wish to be recorded

2) People want others to post everything they record at events else they become suspicious of why it is being recorded

As you can see, we have an impasse here.

If someone is going to record and publish, we are saying they should get permission of everyone in the shot. Given this is probably feasibly impossible at times, it is rather unfair to have the notion that if you record you should be posting your media publicly and be suspicious of those who do not.

These are the two big quotes to look at in my honest opinion. And even if the people stopped, they still have an obligation to post what they have, which still conflicts with the privacy aspect.

Is it legal to photograph/video someone on public property with or without their permission? Yes. However photo/videographers really should act decent and get the approval from the people that want to shoot. Common curtsy is something that everyone should adhere to.

So the concern here (as I understand it) is that photos/video taken at public furry events might possibly, at some point in the future be used for blackmail and/or libel. I find that more than a little farfetched. And what the heck are we doing at these events that we want to be so secretive about it? We're not Furries Anonymous, for crying out loud. If you choose to hang out with fursuiters, or cosplayers, or street performers, or flamboyant cross-dressers, you run the risk of ending up on film with them. It kinda goes with the territory.

It should be noted that the big monthly meets have excellent guidelines for how you should behave. Let's take a look at bowling:

Whatever you wear has to be suitable for the general public. Also your action/language should also be suitable for the general public.

or the monthly dinnermeets:

Behave in a manner fitting being out in a public restaurant.

or the recent Mount Seymour adventure:

Remember this is a public area and around young children, your behaviour and language as well as your costume/clothing MUST be suitable for the general public!

By attending any of these events, fursuiting/tail-wearing or not, you've agreed to be seen with people who are obviously furries. It doesn't take a camera to remember a person's face. I think most people can put two and two together if they see you at Rev's going in and out of the same room the fursuiters are using. So again, what's going on at these events that you don't want on film?

: Whitefoot  April 01, 2012, 07:59:13 -06:00what's going on at these events that you don't want on film?

I can only speak for myself... I don't do anything wrong (well, I mean, I wouldn't should I go to a meet)... however, I am a huge fatass and I don't turn up on film well. It embarrasses the hell out of me to see myself in pictures/videos. When I look better, then it wouldn't be such a problem. I have a huge fear of people looking at me and making fun of and judging me.

: Mikomi  April 01, 2012, 07:08:15 -06:00

A reasonable expectation of privacy would not apply to someone taking a photo of another person in a public space.

And that's the crux of it. If it is a private event that specifies no photography, you can totally be sued. Check out how a more established subculture handles photography at their events: http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/ (http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/). I think it all comes down to what ground rules the event organizers state upfront. Is it a public event or a private one? Is there a private area? Does it say no photographs without permission? The Vancoufur website doesn't say anything about it so you could reasonably assume photography is fair game at this one. I've never been to a furcon so I don't know if that's par for the course or not.

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 08:07:02 -06:00
And that's the crux of it. If it is a private event that specifies no photography, you can totally be sued. Check out how a more established subculture handles photography at their events: http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/ (http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/). I think it all comes down to what ground rules the event organizers state upfront. Is it a public event or a private one? Is there a private area? Does it say no photographs without permission? The Vancoufur website doesn't say anything about it so you could reasonably assume photography is fair game at this one. I've never been to a furcon so I don't know if that's par for the course or not.

You cant be sued, thats just silly, but your could be removed from the premise. Also it is not up to the event co-ordinator to set those rules in most settings. Like a bowling ally, restaurant, mall. Its up to the owner of the property, security for the property, or someone on the owners behalf. If it is at someones home, then they are the owners. But they still cant sue you. They can tell you to leave, and delete the images. However if it was at a house party per say, and there was no sign or verbal warning, it is assumed photography is allowed.

Most cons dont disallow photography because people go and want to take images for there memories. Its like going to disney land, and for them to say no photography. It makes no sense.

I do understand that self-consciousness is an issue as well, But I would like to think people have better things to do then to take pictures fo the sole purpose of laughing at someone later. But if that is the case, its more likely to be done walking along the street, or at wal mart. then at a fur meet with people who are gathering to have a good time with each other.

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 08:07:02 -06:00
And that's the crux of it. If it is a private event that specifies no photography, you can totally be sued. Check out how a more established subculture handles photography at their events: http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/ (http://www.noirvancouver.com/photo-rules/). I think it all comes down to what ground rules the event organizers state upfront. Is it a public event or a private one? Is there a private area? Does it say no photographs without permission? The Vancoufur website doesn't say anything about it so you could reasonably assume photography is fair game at this one. I've never been to a furcon so I don't know if that's par for the course or not.

I daresay their events are probably pretty different from ours, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison.

In any case, I've never been to a furry convention that specified any particular rules around photography for anyone but media, and I've been going to these things for a long time.

One of the few times that I would be concerned is if there's this "exterior" photographer that breaches himself or herself into the headless lounge...

: Mikomi  April 01, 2012, 08:23:31 -06:00
You cant be sued, thats just silly..

Not so silly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubry_v._%C3%89ditions_Vice-Versa_inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubry_v._%C3%89ditions_Vice-Versa_inc.)

: Mikomi  April 01, 2012, 08:23:31 -06:00
Its up to the owner of the property, security for the property, or someone on the owners behalf. If it is at someones home, then they are the owners. But they still cant sue you. They can tell you to leave, and delete the images. However if it was at a house party per say, and there was no sign or verbal warning, it is assumed photography is allowed.

If the organizers that are renting the venue state no photography, then the attendees will have an expectation of privacy. It's a moot point because the organizers appear to welcome photographers. If on the other hand they stated "no photographs" and someone was taking photo's of people then they open themselves up to legal action. The funny thing is, the organizers can ask the photographer to delete the images, but they are not  obligated to. The subjects can sue for damages (if they apply), but that's about it.

: Silvermink  April 01, 2012, 08:44:23 -06:00
I daresay their events are probably pretty different from ours, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison.

Haha, I would imagine so. That doesn't mean the laws apply any differently in practice.

: squashNstretch  April 01, 2012, 09:02:42 -06:00
Not so silly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubry_v._%C3%89ditions_Vice-Versa_inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubry_v._%C3%89ditions_Vice-Versa_inc.)

If the organizers that are renting the venue state no photography, then the attendees will have an expectation of privacy. It's a moot point because the organizers appear to welcome photographers. If on the other hand they stated "no photographs" and someone was taking photo's of people then they open themselves up to legal action. The funny thing is, the organizers can ask the photographer to delete the images, but they are not  obligated to. The subjects can sue for damages (if they apply), but that's about it.

Haha, I would imagine so. That doesn't mean the laws apply any differently in practice.

It is silly because you cant be sued for taking the picture and having it for personal use. You CAN be sued for making money from that image how ever. (as your wiki article stated)

Also let it be known the owners can ask you to delete the images, you do not have to however. No one can ask you to destroy your property. Intellectual or otherwise


As for you second point, again legal action can not be taken even if the owner (who by law is the only one who can take action on the matter.) Disallows photography. You can only be sued if you made money from there image.



Well yes they do apply different because that event you linked to has clearly set out its expectations for entry. And it is alo a much different environment to a fur meet. You're comparing apples and oranges. Also if you read the link to that event you posted. The worst the venue can do to you is remove you and ASK to delete the images. If you keep the images and make profit from them, you can then be sued.

Now we have gone in the same circle a few times do you get it? If you dont there is a whole website dedicated to this kind of thing >>>> http://ambientlight.ca/laws/ (http://ambientlight.ca/laws/)
That should clear up the "legal" Portion of this debate.

With all of this said, again I personally do and encourage others, if you are asked politely to remove an image of someone or stop recording them. Either try your best to avoid getting them in the frame, or show them that they where not in the frame to begin with if thats the case.

When I was shooting for newspapers, the general policy was that if it was an event that the public was invited to and free for anyone to attend, it was fair game for photography and publishing of said photography because there's little in the way of expectation of privacy. Specific events where admission is required were different: we'd have to get permission to be there. Generally at that point it becomes the event holder's responsibility to ensure that people knew the media might be there and to either avoid the camera or ask politely not to be photographed. In the ten years or so I shot for newspapers, we did not use photo releases; we had to deal with them at places like schools, where occasionally parents didn't want their kids in any media shots and would lodge a no-photos request with the office. If someone asked me not to use their picture at any time, I would gladly not do so.

(Just for the record, grabbing someone's camera and shoving it aside if they're shooting is not considered polite. Some people, surprisingly, do need to learn this. =P )

For an event like a con, a media policy is absolutely necessary, and that should probably include something pertaining to photography. I don't know how it's done elsewhere, but it might be worth researching.

Myself Im a Photographer. I have been taking pictures for Years from ALL over the world. and it is very hurtful to have to read through all your posts. yes there are many Good Concerns and Many Bad Ones that make no sense and nothing but a catch 22 of the yes and no I can do this i cant do this.

((((I Know my laws about my photo's and I will continue to take pictures until the day I die. I Have Sued people for touching my camera and forcefully pushing me. Dont think for a moment I will take an attack on my person and Just shrug it off. )))) <---- This is not an attack on anyone. its just what HAS happened to me in the Past. and that was back in the day of my 35mm

Ok that was a bit of a yell, Now for the nice part, even thou I can openly and publicly take photos of anything I want. I dont, I take photos and try to do an artistic view that is both Pleasing and Kind to the one that is being shot. I have always asked for Permmission and I will ALLWAYS continue to ask if I may take your picture. Think of it this way. I may ask you in the middle of the day to take your photo. thou with my memory I will forget by that night. and if I come around again. and see that you or the person(s) are in a Natural Pose that is what I see as Artistic. I will come up to person(s) and ASK again if I may.

I used to have my own site years ago where I would post all my photos (take in note these are not FURRIES but Human) and every Picture that was on that site was taken in a Public place Free to Photograph at will. but all subject KNEW of said photos.

Well hat site is long gone now and that DATA is now Stored on a Drive within my Private Server, Along with Countless Thousands of photos and articles (think of it as a Time Capsule "that in more then not cases will never be seen again and Just rush and begone)

OK now Under my rights as a Photographer. all my photos are Free and set to public eye with Contract Law that they can be used by ANYone as Long as said photo is of Stock and to not be sold or used in a manner of Profit.

You are free:
* to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
* to Remix — to adapt the work

Under the following conditions:
* Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).

* For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the licence terms of this work.
* Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.
* The author's moral rights are retained in this licence.

----------------------------------------

ok I think I have ranted a little to much here. the bottom line that I want to stat is this.

as a photographer. I respect the subject that I am taking a Photo of. and I will always ask first to get the Rights to Pose them so that I may have a Record of stock to publish. If I am asked not to or (Please dont take my picture) I will make sure that I NEVER get you in my shots. and if by mistake I do. (as I review all photos AS they are taken "this is on the Random case you HAPPEN to walk into the shot in the background and I can Clearly see you or see the FACE of someone) I will DELETE that said photo and do another of the subject im trying to Capture.

Oh I noticed something as well as I was reading this topic... there are a few Furs that take video and pictures that were named (good people too ^.^ love there stuff) but I was not mentioned at all. Grated I dont have the BIG cams but I get my photos up in a timely mannor or people. so I do hope this is not a Knock on me, as I would be greatly hurt.

Now if someone does have a problem with me. Please I want to respect your wishes, and I want to hear from you. I personally know of 3 persons that dont want photos taken of them, and I respect that and have allways watched out to make sure that I keep there wishes  as I respect them and enjoy their friendship..

Ok, as to a NO Photo/video/media Block at a con. I dont see that EVER happening. Atleast to the Photo and video part. yes I like the idea of no media allowed. as they seem to twist things baddly. but to block/black out Photo and video from a con. would be Just wrong as how would anyone know what the con was about. how would we show people we are having fun (yes there is word to word) but... ("how I found out about the fandom thou I was a fur long before that. was from seeing a video taken from within a Con itself. and I was Like WOW now thats is cool. I so want to go to one of them") and that is what go me into searching out the fandom via the net. as I never knew it was even there.

So what are we going to do here? are we going to black out the memories that we enjoyed or try and reach an even playing ground for this? if you think about it. Grapher(s) and cons or events or what have you go paw in paw. and its not just Furry fandom its everything.
ground point is if you dont want your photo take. talk to the grapher. they are human too and love to talk and are MORE then happy to say. "ok no worries my friend :)"

Part 1

Excuse the lateness of this reply.  It has been delayed due to my being sick and then preoccupied with matters postponed due to being sick over the past week.  This is also a portion of the forum that I do not visit often and I did not discover this thread until it was already long in the tooth.   Since my presence was a subject of the original post, I feel that I ought to weigh in on the issues of concern from my perspective.  I am going to address all of the concerns that I feel ought to be address chronologically according to the sequence in which they were posted.  I apologize if I repeat and reiterate what others have already said.

Original Post: Ember, I have seen you at these events and you have seen me.  We even talked a number of times.  For crying out loud, why didn't you mention any of this to me?  Yes, I know I'm ugly, but that's no reason to be put off from talking to me.  You can break-dance all over my spine if you get freaked out; I'm the one who should be afraid of you!  Talk to your roommates Sairys and Torwin, who I have worked with in the past.  For that matter, get back in here and comment on your own thread because its kind of a big deal now (sorry Torwin).  And for the record, I cut you out of the 2011 year in review bowling compilation footage because I thought maybe you didn't want your face on camera (and if that is the case the maybe you ought to reexamine the decision to open a Doghouse YouTube channel).  Was I recording anything at the two furmeets where you saw me last year?  Do I circle around the tables at dinner meets?  (Well no because nobody in their right mind records people while they are eating).  

Reply #2: Not only that, Kitten, but when I post in (the appropriate) threads "Hey, the photographs are up!" I add that if there any photographs that anybody wants removed or submitted to them privately, they can contact me.  So far, nobody has requested that I remove any photographs.  This is probably because I NEVER post anything that I WOULD NOT want the world to see.  Keep in mind people, bad photographs reflect badly upon the photographer inasmuch as the subject.  And I hate having to make people wait for my materials, but when it comes to a choice between giving you coal and giving you diamonds, I want to make diamonds.

Reply #4: Zenai, I am sure you are a lovely lady, but to be perfectly honest I don't know what you look like.  I have a hard time remembering faces that are not on fursuits; even the faces of suiters out of suit.  Lace will attest to that.  Roan gave me my first fursuit hug, but I didn't actually meet Lace unsuited for the first time until more than a year.  When I saw him again a few months later, I didn't recognize him!  Having seen Lace now a few times out of suit, I know what he looks like, but for many non-suiters, if I see you infrequently and we have not talked often, I probably don't remember your faces or your names.  Do not be offended: I am like this way with everyone.

This situation is compounded by one additional factor.  Now please, let nobody who does not wear a suit take this in offense.  I am strictly speaking from a photographer's subjectivity standpoint.  PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN SUIT ARE BORING.  I see them all the time.  I go to furry events with the intent to record fursuits because there are FURSUITS.  Look at my photographs.  How many of them do not include fursuits?  Very few.  Everyone wants to see fursuits.  Fursuits are eye-candy.  Fursuits are golden.  Fursuits are anonymous; I can post as many pictures of them as I want and the wearer remains unseen. And fursuits are NEVER boring.  If it is "Fursuit Bowling" why should all of my pictures be focused on the furries who did not wear suits?  So if you are not in suit and there are suiters present, unless you flag me down or come sailing into the frame, I am not concentrating on you.  I am looking after the suiters, and when they start posing for me I know that they want to be seen.  Hence, Zenai, why I can't place your face to a name at the moment.

And while we are on the subject of non-suiters who do not want to be seen and how widespread is this issue, why is the most popular thread in this section of board entitled "RL Pics. The Faces Behind The Fur"?

Reply #6: It's a rule that you never let them see how good you are, but this is a special circumstance.  I go to a lot of trouble to keep out faces of persons who do not want to be in the shot.  And I am one of them.  Many of you know that I ask to please keep my face off of the internet because like many of you I am paranoid that someone who I do not want seeing such images will see such images and interpret them in an incorrect light.  (But for the record, my mother now knows that I work with "mascots" and she has even met Bandit and posed with him, which is more than I could get her to do with all of the Disney World characters which I met in 2010).

But even I accept that I cannot completely prohibit myself from being online.  I am in the background of a number of images and videos.  Look at that Guardian article.  They included...wait a minute, how come everyone else got a decent photograph except me?  Look, if you are going to show me off then at least bother to do it right!   There are least some basic rules this photographer could have applied while still maintaining anonymity, and judging from the other pictures this was clearly not a novice.  Don't stand directly behind me if I am not back-lit; this is not an advert for the Kheetah Cam's carrying case.  Come around to my right side and show that I was filming; otherwise I just look like a dork with a backpack sprouting a tail.  And for goodness sakes don't cutoff my tail!!!   It's the only furry thing that I have to wear.  How dare they include that half-assed image.  I'm devaluing their entire gallery!...Ahem.

My point is, I want to remain anonymous too, so why should I do against others what I do not want being done against myself?  There are persons who have asked that I do not include them in photographs and I try to respect their wishes to my ablest.  Now at some events suiters are going in and out of suit and my approach to situations of the like is this: If I see you out of suit, I won't record you unless you have told me that it is OK to do so.  I have actually written a number of suiters before uploading my photos after finding them in the background of specific shots, "I have photographs of you out of suit this time, do you want me to refrain from posting any of them?"  That so many have said "It's OK" must mean that I can be trusted.   Look at NitroShep.  There are shots of him at bowling last March from the back because I wanted to keep his face offline.  But at August he got into this big wrestling match with Tai and it was such a gem that I had to snap away.  When it was done I told him I wouldn't upload any of those pictures, but he told me that it was OK.   Trust isn't something that springs forth immaculate; it comes with experience.

I crop photos specifically to remove the faces of those who wish to remain undocumented.  I have even had to refrain from posting what I thought were worthwhile pictures because I could not remove the concerned person from the shot.  At bowling, you will notice that I try to angle myself if I see someone like Zen walk into the frame because he has asked me to cut him out.  At VancouFur, as difficult as it was, I was trying to do the same thing while on Kheetah Cam.  Look at the video where I wore Markus for the first time and appraise the faces of Aphinity and Spark's.  You can't see them!  I motion tracked blurs over their faces because I thought they would appreciate being kept out.  Look at the 2011 year in review bowling video (BTW, I realize that I keep saying "Look Look" but you may not no where to look so look here http://www.youtube.com/user/CameraFox (http://www.youtube.com/user/CameraFox) and you can find them on BC Furries as well).  How many non-fursuit faces do you see?  How often does the camera hold on a non-fursuit face when it is not cut cut cutting?

I try not to get in the way of my subjects.  I try not to cross anybody else's axis.  I try not to get Kheetah on record when he is out of suit because he does not want to be seen.  I try and I say that 'I try' because I will admit that I do make mistakes.  Sometimes I become so focused on getting the image that I forget my surroundings.  And I tell people if that happens they should remind me.  I went into VancouFur telling the organizers "Don't let me get in your way, and I won't try but if I do let me know".  Nobody did.  Heck, people told me where events were happening specifically so that I would go and film them.  When The Burnaby News Leader interviewed everyone, and when CBC and CTV walked in the building, I was told "Be there."

And for the record, maybe when you see me photographing or filming you notice that I run away a lot.  I am not trying to escape.  I have to keep moving.  Here is hot it works: Get the shot, then go on to the next one.  If you are not on the ball, you are missing memories and moments that won't happen again.  I am extremely hard on myself for missing things that should have made great captures but I failed to get.  I move so I can get out of the way, either of my subjects of my fellow photographers/videographers, and get on to the next shot.

#8:  This is why I don't have an FA page, despite people pleading with me to get one.  Some people think I am odd for not having a Fury Affinity account.  Well, now you know one reason why.  That is not to say that none of my pictures are on Fur Affinity.  People have contacted me asking for permission to copy and upload my photographs.  I am flattered that they feel they are so good that they want to share them with the world and that they take the time to cite me as the photographs.  For the record, it would go a long way towards letting people know when they can see my work if it was uploaded on FA.  At VancouFur, I still had to go around telling people that I had not seen since Howloween 2010 that the footage of their suits was available because until that point I had no way to contact them.

Reply #10: Torwin, ElektroFuzz 2 photos are here http://www.bcfurries.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;cat=8 (http://www.bcfurries.com/forum/index.php?action=gallery;cat=8).  I use to try and abstain from recording you at dances because you were out of suit; hence why there are not many images of you working the lighting equipment.  Then I found all those pictures of your face on your FA account and decided you were OK with it.  But, err, for the record, my name is not Uninvaded Fox.

Reply #19: Correct, it is not filmographer.  A filmographer would be someone who  wanted to list all of the films that a specific actor was in.

Reply# 21: Actually, that is an ElektroFuzz II promo culled from footage taken at ElektroFuzz I.  You can tell because Jimfoxyboy is in suit, and he was not in suit at ElektroFuzz 2.

Reply#22: It should be known that organizers have expected me to be recording an event in some way (once again everyone) if there are fursuits.  Heck, if I show up without recording equipment, people are going to ask me, "Why not?" I am even disappointed with myself if I cannot function in some archivist capacity.  I get lost otherwise.  I am used to being at furry events but not feeling like I am actually there; rather appraising everything through tunnel vision on monitors with an eye for the after-image.

I worked public events at Historic Stewart Farm.  Every time I wanted to take a picture of someone, I had to get them to sign a release form...before I took the photos.  This was in case the Farm wanted to publicize the photos are part of any sort of event advertising.  The problem with photography is that you are either waiting for shots to happen or recognizing them as they happen.  In either case, shoving a clipboard under someones nose and saying "Here, sign this" DESTROYS THE MOMENT.  It eliminates the spontaneity of the event.  But I am not working for anybody at furry events.  NOBODY pays me to do this and I do not expect them to pay me.  My motivation is to make all of you happy and give you something afterwards to remember the moment, not to make money.  The closest I came was Howloween 2010 when the Art Institute, from which I had secured material and man hours to record the event, proposed that the video could lead to a documentary.  Well, I didn't make one.  I put all the best video that I recorded on YouTube and let everyone else know about it, which is what I had wanted to do to begin with.  IT'S ALL FOR YOU!

Let me ask you this: who would you rather do the recording, one of us or one of them?  Who is them?  Them is everyone else at Revs in the surrounding lanes, who, upon seeing a giant furry animal trying to heave fluorescent-painted balls down the lanes, are going to pull out their cameras and cell phones and start snapping away whether we want them to or not.  Them is every tourist on the street who thinks we are some sort of neighborhood attraction and demands to pose with us.  Them is a world in which Orwellian surveillance is no longer science fiction and we are recorded so clandestinely to god knows who for god knows who else to see at every waking moment.  Again, I prefer to remain undocumented, but I recognize the face an enormous problem: Furries are made to be seen!  That is the entire point of a Hebdigian Spectacular Subculture, to showoff ourselves in contrast to the mainstream mundanity.  Nobody wears a fursuit, or even just a tail, and hopes to be ignored.  Anyone in proximity to a fursuit must realize this.  They are a giant technicolor bulls-eye for cameras.  But at least if the cameraman is a furry, s/he is guaranteed to be on your side.

For the record, I make available copies of my event photographs to the organizers when they ask for them, including the originals and edited versions so they can see what I have done to the initial images.  And when I do so, I give out ALL of my photographs, not just the ones which I have made public, so they can see what I made public as well as what I didn't make public.

Part 2

Reply #38:  Actually, those of you who have read Inside The Mouse will know that Disney has a no photography rule when it comes to photographing any of their characters headless. Prior to the advent of digital photography, their policy was to confiscate your roll of film, remove the offending images, return the roll sans offending images and include a complementary roll of film as well.  One woman, upon realizing what she had done, actually opened up her camera and tore out the entire roll of film without being prompted.

Myself, I cannot stand to look at fursuiters sans head.  By that I mean someone wearing everything except the head; not simply being out of suit  The contrast between a body of beautiful fur and a face of eye-gouging pink skin is too much to bare.  Hence why I NEVER photograph anyone headless. Not that it isn't always easy when a fursuiter decapitates right in front of me while I am snapping away without waiting to be in a more discreet location (and yes it has happened).

As I said, I post my photographs on BC Furries because I have no FA account and people seem fine with that.  I put videos on YouTube so the world knows about us.  The world has to know that there are BC Furries; BC Furries should know that there are BC Furries.  Nobody would have come to VancouFur from as far away as Poland if they had thought we lacked a furry community.  It's advertising without being advertising.  I want to be a film editor.  I paid $30,000 to go to the Art Institute to be trained to become one.  I want to work on projects that are meaningful to me, which is not something that I have the breathing room to choose professionally, but furries are meaningful to me and I can choose.  That is why at Ai I had a reputation as "that mascot guy" because I was always trying to put anthropomrophs into my projects (note: "mascots" not "furries").  And it worked; three times my ideas became actual movies.  And guess what?  I found out that the head of the film department loves mascots.  When I brought Rennie Fox on campus in full suit, she grabbed him and hugged him.  I stood out, which is what everyone endeavoring to set themselves apart in this business does.  That is also why I have used classic rock rather than techno as a soundtrack for my videos, because it is meaningful to me and other furries don't use it.

And for the record, if other people are at the same event taking photographs or videos, I do want to see what you captured.  I can't see everything; I can't document everything.  That is why Kheetah and I are often working together, because one of us is going to miss something that the other person did not record 9and because stills and video each capture different moments and emotions).  Look at the videos I have collected in the playlist on VancouFur's YouTube channel.  You had Mountain Blue Fox recording the walk up into Save on Foods, and Nitro's video of the fursuiters invading White Spot.  I didn't get either of those.  It's all part of the history.

I go to fursuit bowling; I must be doing something right.  I go to ElektroFuzz; I must be doing something right.  I am at Community Critters events; I must be doing something right.  People upload my photographs to Fur Affinity; I must be doing something right.  I was asked to create the VancouFur promotional video; I must be doing something right.  I was allowed to roam all over VancouFur on Kheetah Cam; I must be doing something right.  Rainfurrest wants me to make their promo video; I must be doing something right.    Do you know how enriching it feels to be WANTED?  I am not saying that I am the product of an unloving family, not be any stretch of the imagination, but you people want me around.  None of you are obligated for this, but you like having me around.  I went 11 years without a friend and I still don't know why.  I never took the steps to find local furries before 2010 despite being an admitted furry for three years, because I did not feel that there was anything that I could do to contribute to the local community.  When there is an event, I have to be doing something because otherwise I feel that I will have no business being there.  If I cannot add positively to the whole, I have no purpose.  

I have a Bachelor's of History from SFU.  I understand the role in archiving material.  When I do what I do, I always keep one eye on history.  In the long run, when all of us are too old to bowl and dance and even fursuit, those images will still be with to preserve the memories.  And if God forbid something happens and the furry community ceases to exist and we wind up the 21st century equivalents of the hippie generation, then this will be PROOF that this whole wonderful thing DID HAPPEN.  We existed and we are here now.

I am not trying to hurt anyone.  I have been hurt enough and it sucks.  But things like this are really crushing.  I think that finally my presence is being accepted and welcomed, that I have a reason and a purpose, and now...I fell like I have to justify being here, again.  And for the record, I don't think that I am great at what I can do.  I think that I have a talent, but would rather have others take appraisals of my work because that is where it matters.

So, to finish off this elaborate triste, which has no doubt burned your eyes into the screen (heck I just exceeded the 20,000 max and had to split it into two parts), the next time you see me wandering around with a camera or on Kheetah Cam, if you have any concerns over what I am doing and where it is going to end up talk to me.  Believe it or not, I am shy too; the camera just works as a medium through which I can be more extroversive. Thank you for taking the time to read this far, and if there should be any responses to this essay, I can promise you that my replies will not be of an equal length.  At least I hope not.

Oh and people, please don't gang up on Ember the next time you see him.  He is a Fox too, and I have to look out for my brothers.

: Univaded Fox  April 02, 2012, 06:34:16 -06:00
Reply #4: Zenia

Zenia isn't from the mainland, she's actually from the Island. But she does have pictures on her profile and on her FA account. And to be honest, she's very pretty. :3 And I love her tattoo!! :D :hug:

: Univaded Fox  April 02, 2012, 06:34:16 -06:00
Part 1

Here Here. you know I could not have said that better. Thank you my friend

: H u nn Y  April 02, 2012, 06:50:56 -06:00
Zenia isn't from the mainland, she's actually from the Island. But she does have pictures on her profile and on her FA account. And to be honest, she's very pretty. :3 And I love her tattoo!! :D :hug:

Aw, thanks Hunny! I suppose I should say that I usually don't mind pictures from my bust up. Especially if they look nice. I just don't like the rest of my body in pictures. hehe

: zenia  April 02, 2012, 07:17:18 -06:00
Aw, thanks Hunny! I suppose I should say that I usually don't mind pictures from my bust up. Especially if they look nice. I just don't like the rest of my body in pictures. hehe

Ahh, totally understandable!^w^ Infact I feel the exact same way about that, tehe x3

: H u nn Y  April 02, 2012, 07:19:59 -06:00
Ahh, totally understandable!^w^ Infact I feel the exact same way about that, tehe x3

oh god and to think when I get my fursuit its gonna be pretty close fitting so im gonna be bearing a lot of my figure ^^;

: Univaded Fox  April 02, 2012, 06:34:16 -06:00

...

It sounds to me like you are doing it well. :)

Univaded please don't stop filming or photographing!!  You are quite good at what you do and you capture the souls of the local furries very well!!

I don't mind being recorded, i've seen the pics but I really want to see some vids, lol

Someone's been recording me, I just don't know who it was, I just want a chance to see the footage

I'm a shameless attention whore, so any pictures/video taken of me is a plus.  I did however think it was odd that a lot of stuff was taken but never posted (due to like one person or two saying they were not comfortable with it, and then the whole footage was thrown out or something).  Heard something like that about Electrofuzz one.

: Kitten  April 02, 2012, 11:52:08 -06:00
Univaded please don't stop filming or photographing!!  You are quite good at what you do and you capture the souls of the local furries very well!!

I have to second this.  :-3

I dont want to delve into this too much, but as the Organizer of both ElektroFuzz events, I have NEVER received a complaint about a photographer or filmer at either of the events. I have heard stories of specific people having issues with each other, but when it's that isolated, in good conscience, i must to chalk it up to personal differences.

I am always open to re-assessing our organizations filming policy, but to date have never been given a reason to do so or have had enough complaints put forth to make it a priority.

If people ever do have those concerns they are always welcome to contact me.

In the age of technology we live in, however, I do believe you must also understand that the camera on my iphone is at par with many "professional looking" Cameras from 5 years ago. At any event I have been at, furry or not, people are filming and taking pictures everywhere. Its hard to avoid without an all out ban on electronics.

In the aspect of filming for professional purposes, it would be intelligent to have rules and procedures in place. However, I have never been approached by a film crew who wanted to film an event for any professional or media reason.

If you are uncomfortable being filmed, let the filmer know. If you are uncomfortable doing so, bring your concern to an organizer. If the filmer continues, then we will deal with the issue. But, again, to date I have never seen any issues beyond personal differences.

Someone's been recording me, I just don't know who it was, I just want a chance to see the footage

I agree with this.. Someone at the Vancoufur convention got me on film and some one else (a big african guy) got some great pictures of my boyfriend actually HAVING FUN! :P Both were at the dance and they were up on the projection screen while we were dancing so I know they're out there. Plus, he actually asked if he could take the pictures BEFORE he took them, which my bf really appreciated. If anyone can track down the pics, that would be awesome! I really want to put them in a scrapbook. :D

: Kittara  April 04, 2012, 08:12:30 -06:00
I agree with this.. Someone at the Vancoufur convention got me on film and some one else (a big african guy) got some great pictures of my boyfriend actually HAVING FUN! :P Both were at the dance and they were up on the projection screen while we were dancing so I know they're out there. Plus, he actually asked if he could take the pictures BEFORE he took them, which my bf really appreciated. If anyone can track down the pics, that would be awesome! I really want to put them in a scrapbook. :D

If your photos ended up on a screen by some "black guys", that a company that did that for VancouFur pro-bono. If you want those photos then you'll have to ask Aphinity for their website/contact. Aphinity can be reached on FA under Aphinity(if you try and get him on the forums.....he does not check back very often.....)

i lost interest in documenting anything furry. I love photography and do some filming but mostly vacation stuff family stuff and nature in general. seeing how i went to art school which had extensive film and photography quadrants i am not just some dude who buys a camera or video camera.
4 years ago i got a very nice $1600 camera and was a bit of a photo bug but found that i was more interested in filming stuff other than furry stuff. mostly because i cant have myself linked back with furry professionally as it can have ill effects . ( can not will) but why take the chance. occasionally back then i took some fur suiting events for rat's charity group which makes sense but im so lazy with photos i always plan to upload and i never did. hell most of my photos were of the wolves at grouse mountain because i lived just 30 mins away for almost two years.

when i got my film camera it was all business. for my actual business, as i was shooting stock footage for a future documentary on my home town and scheduling actual interviews with locals, wildlife professionals, and elderly folks who know history of the town.
i may have shot some furry stuff once? but i cant even remember because i just don't care enough about it. personally it annoys me to be shot but its not like my soul is being robbed and i usually stay out of photos so it does not matter to much. i think the only real furry thing i actually shot was some documentation of camp fur last year, and most of it was the trip to the train tunnels which i organized on the fly. i haven't touched my camera much since then. i think i brought it to RF last year with the excuse in my head " i own it so i might as well use the dam thing", but i was so busy running around i never did.

i guess i have a odd perspective seeing how i have over $6000 of mixed camera film and video equipment for professional work but really have no desire to do much with it furry. i recall two RF cons ago, at a Halloween much before, and i think all fur fun i brought a camera because i was new to cons and found the fur suits rather nifty. that's about as much as was on fa and i realized if i didn't take photos, someone else would so there was no point spending time id rather spend talking to folks or drawing, running around with a camera anymore.


i have no doubt there are very creepy scary people out there who act like stalkers or perverts  ( especially in a fandom that has such sexuality worn on its sleeve)... personally i cant predict how id act if i learned someone did that to me, but i am sure ember means more girls. so i do not have quite that perspective as i am just detached and dont give a shit about documenting stuff. the kind of stuff i want to document are like very rare trips with my mother before she dies, or getting my grandmother on film ( who now has had a stroke and can not be filmed having a conversation anymore). so i am happy i documented it for my family. part of the connection i have with my mother as a grown up perspective ( and not a son) is that we both love nature photography. two years ago we spent a week with the sole goal to go to golden bc and photograph the wolves there on their wolf walk. for both two day drives there and back we woudl stop every 30 minutes every time we saw wildlife ( mostly birds of prey). when i went up to my home island with azlan last year this time, i had my camera shooting all the time and got some surprising wildlife results such as just happen to be pointing my video camera at a culvert drain when an otter ran out of the brush and into it.

i think you could say jokingly that documenting run of the mill furry events is much more boring to me ( when they are not once in a life time events). and real animals is far more interesting subjects lol. but i say so with a smile and no disrespect. i am glad there are those that document events but i guess Ive been so rooted to where i live and not much of a globe traveler that i just got bored with 100'000 furs videos and photos of ac fc or other cons or travel. it all blurs together after awhile. last time i think i videotaped a fur was when fuzzypaws came up, and we were not doing anything furry, just walking around white cliff park by horseshoe bay. unless you count azlan who accompanied me up north last year for an entire week of filming and couldn't help but be in my videos. he is quite a photography nut too. it was interesting to have him my mom and myself all in the same car ride back south. we even saw a bear along the way.


furry creepers are so far removed, i really am speaking another language. i guess all you can do is do what anyone does, identify when someone causes a problem. warn them and exile them if they do not change.

While I tend to take tons of pictures not many turn out as I have a cheaper camera. Those that turn out or if I am taking pictures at events the people who are featured in my pictures are given the choice to get those pictures from me and post them themselves or to not have them posted...

I myself hate when people spam post pictures of others specially those without permission. And yes while I understand that its hard to take pictures and NOT have people in the background limiting those people is something I try hard to do.

Anyone I have taken pictures of can simply email me and I will send them the file and they are welcome to post them anywhere I simply ask that they say I took the picture.

SilverRose

1silverrose1@gmail.com

If anyone knows I took a picture of them or would like me to CHECK my files for pictures of them please email me... Also if I dont know what your suit is please send me a link or a description so I can send the right pictures.

I don't ask when I take video. If I see a couple of fursuits having fun or hanging out in a certain area, I'll pull out my camera and start filming.

When I take pictures, however, I do ask if I happen to come across a lone fursuit, but if there's a group posing in front of a group of people, I'll jump in and take a snapshot or two.

How much I post depends on how lazy I am and/or how happy I am of what I have.

It would be rather difficult to have release forms for every event & every person that attends such events. Most of our venues are in public areas like when we did easter-egg hunting down at metrotown. I know for a fact the mundanes (nonfurs) as I call them took multi photos of the group mainly of the suiters. Plus a various number of furs taking their own via cellphone or camera

Why don't we just make an unofficial rule that any photographer that takes any more 'upskirt' shots is is going to get a black eye and banished from future events?  :)

It's a simple solution, it works for everyone.

: Renwaldo  April 17, 2012, 09:25:09 -06:00
Why don't we just make an unofficial rule that any photographer that takes any more 'upskirt' shots is is going to get a black eye and banished from future events?  :)

It's a simple solution, it works for everyone.

And if I happen to attend future events! I'll be gladly to be the one to Enforce this rule to bad photographers!  :-3

: Renwaldo  April 17, 2012, 09:25:09 -06:00
Why don't we just make an unofficial rule that any photographer that takes any more 'upskirt' shots is is going to get a black eye and banished from future events?  :)

It's a simple solution, it works for everyone.

This could be defined as sexual harassment, and is covered by nearly every event's disclosure form, including Howloween and VancouFur.  As for other private events, if it's in a public venue, you have to expect that you will be photographed, and if you don't want to be, you should not be there.  End of discussion.

Private event?  Tell the organizer about something you did not agree with.  I have received multiple such complaints about particular people and they have all had these concerns told to them; in some cases, on multiple occasions.

Public event?  Expect to be photographed, and be careful about how you are posing and positioned since there is very little you can do about it after the fact.  However, direct sexual exploitation or harassment is a criminal offence and you CAN press charges.

I was thinking along the lines of sexual harrassment specifically. I see nothing wrong with being photographed generally speaking.

sexual harassment...panda!

: Lunar_Kefka  April 26, 2012, 11:03:08 -06:00
sexual harassment...panda!

Man, that reference makes me a saaaaad panda. Thankfully your pictures of totally unthreatening and no doubt morally upstanding clowns cheered me up.

On topic though, our Ottawa events are probably much smaller than the ones you guys put together but our rules follow the 'common sense' approach. Photographers/Videographers? Respect your subjects. If they ask not to be filmed/photographed, do what you can to either avoid them, or blur 'em out of your pics. As for the subjects? If you're going to a major event, expect that people are going to be taking pictures and/or filming it. Our Canada Day events are probably our biggest and there're always videos and pictures. Our film guys have always been very respectful about it and will often avoid pictures of people out of suit. It isn't really the place of a group's forums to dictate behaviour at events. That's up to the event organizer and good ol' social regulation. If you show up at an event acting rudely, don't expect to be welcomed to the next one.

That being said, after reading the majority of this thread it does seem like a bit of a 1st world problem. I'm not a big fan of strangers having film of me that they're doing god knows what with, but I mean, it's the risk you run by leaving your house.