I had a interesting thought as I rode the bus today, some people are very under payed and very unappreciated! Take dish washers for example I have done dish pit in a few places and simply put most people dont give a shit about you and its hard to find a dish pit that is payed much more than minimum wage. Then you take are more public jobs and essential services just think about the shit bus drivers and taxi drivers put up with on a daily basis what a thankless job an once again throw in the low fucking wages especially for cab drivers. I understand are need for entertainment I really do but why really are people who PRETEND to be in he military or be a cop payed so much when the starting wage for a cop or regular infantry is approximately 30 grand a year thats only 10 grand over the poverty marker. I am not saying they should be payed millions like actors or sports stars but I think they should get a little more than what they do now. I hear about athletes getting 14 million dollars over the course of 5 years well sure you are in good shape and good/great at a sport but what about the people that clean up your garbage or protect your country? Food for thought thanks to anyone who actually takes the time to read my drivel.
This is exactly what all the Occupy protests have been about more or less, so many service type jobs treat you and pay you like shit. yet, if these jobs didn't have workers things would fall apart fast. Imagine a day if everyone walked off from their grocery store jobs..
Its fair that more educated and risky jobs be payed higher, but as for CEO's... their wages should not even be 1/3 of what they are now for most companies. Especially in this day and age when we keep hearing of companies being run into the dirt and still some how the CEO's are getting pay raises and hugs income supplements for apparently being the worst business managers ever. If even 1/2 of the salaries they get for cocking things up was divided amongst their low-level CORE employees who actually do the work, I think that would make a huge dent in this provinces poverty.
BC is very very slowly taking steps to improve this little part of Canada but its too little too late, even the new min wage when it hits $10.25 in may 2012 still falls well below the poverty line, we got child poverty like its going outta style and food bank usage by young people and young families is higher than it should be. Personally I think BC shot their people in the foot by making this place rely too heavily on fickle tourism and penny pinching retirees. Now we are paying the price for our leaders stupidity. Seeing the minimum wage debates disgusted me, a lot of older people all felt that $8/hr was fair and people making below poverty wages had no right to complain they could not afford rent and food. Personally I just call them wannabee slave owners for surfing on a wave of poverty workers and getting mad when the ride is slowly coming to a stop.
Take what you will of this, I am sorta jaded on the subject matter XD
People who are actors or play sports are paid so much because they bring in a lot of money- they are a product being sold.
Dishwashers are not paid much because although it is a hard job, it is a mindless unskilled job that anyone can do. Further, if people like dishwashers were paid more then the cost of their wages would be handed down the chain. Your complaint would then be "Why are restaurant meals so expensive?!"
Minimum wage really should be higher, but minimum wage jobs are shitty jobs. I think that the real problem is that certain jobs shouldn't be minimum wage jobs in the first place.
Police, firefighters and emts should be making more money then what they get now. Sure sports star are fun to watch, but the above 3 save/protect lives. Its crappy that they make so little compaired to a sports star, that will probably require their assistence. :/
The main issue is that minimum wage is not a living wage (The point at which the basic necessities of life can be taken care of). Not that minimum wage needs to be high enough that everyone can enjoy cognac and cigars, of course, but it should at least be high enough to stave off malnutrition, homelessness and provide for basics like utilitarian clothing, prescriptions, and basic sundries. Right now, it doesn't. Hell, even at the May 2012 increased rate, it still won't in most areas of BC. Ember's right, though; Higher wages in some fields of work means higher prices for basic goods. In most foodservice, the priciest ingredient in the kitchen is often labor. On the other hand, I doubt all minimum wage jobs need to be minimum wage for budgetary reasons; I'm jaded enough about human nature to suspect what's been suggested, that the highest man on the totem simply wants to scrimp where possible to ensure they can still buy their fifth Lexus with a wad of cash. Sadly, then you have to flip it back around again; The man with five Lexuses pays mechanics to fix them, wash attendants to clean them...
Economics. It's a complicated beastie. I do agree, though; Sports stars, divas and the like are hideously overpaid for the actual material value they produce. Or the toxic waste that can only apparently be disposed of in the ears of the dim, in the case of some "musicians" nowadays. How music still thrives on the model it does, in an effectively post-scarcity environment where commodity value is dictated by fiat-of-oligarch...
</Waltzing ramble>
The new min wage will only make life a little more affordable in small towns or citys where rent is lower, Vic and Van, no way in the coldest day in hell, the living wage index was rated at $18/hr for Vancouver last I heard. Perhaps one day there will be universal living wages, well more like basic survival wages... The real skewed part was how the opposition twisted data, when the concept for these wage boosts was brought to the table, opposition was quick to say only youth who lived at home made that wage and that the actual amount of minimum wage workers in this province doesn't even break 100,000 or so. The thing is, if you change that figure to just anyone who is working and falls under the poverty line, that number just explodes. I found it laughable how when $8/hr was the min you had people with this notion that if someone made like $8.30/hr they were no longer a poverty worker... It was a clever way to skew the fact of the matter to make it look as if this province was full of well-off workers.
Well Drake, here's how it is for me. I earn a few bucks more an hour than minimum wage. I have a room-mate, I don't dine on steak every night, and I'm actually being paid almost twice what I earned upon moving out on my own in Calgary, Alberta, one of the most expensive cities to live in, in Alberta. And on that Albertan job, I managed to save more than $300 more monthly than I do in BC despite making half as much. I managed to buy winter clothes, boots, prescriptions, adequate food... all the necessities. Only recently in BC have I had a job that actually paid me enough that I can start considering even a few of my basic expenses to be adequately funded; I'm fed, sure, I'm sheltered, but I don't have enough surplus overhead right now to go buying much of anything unless I'm doing game art contracts on the side, effectively holding down two jobs. Simply put, the Lower Mainland is not "liveable" in the sense of being able to save for retirement, buy all you need (Not want, need; I had to choose this month between buying new boots and a new winter coat, so I get to pick the part that freezes until next month), and actually deal with any financial contingency that comes up (If and when my wisdom teeth do become a problem, I am solidly fucked). $18/hour does sound about right for Vancouver, and $15 or so an hour seems like the minimum for Surrey.
I don't work as many hours as I would like to, since my shop has been pretty slow for a long time. I make $12/hr... but I can only just afford rent/utilities/bus pass. Some months I get to eat nice things... other months I have to eat rice from the dollar store. I hate it when unexpected things come up... 'cause I am not able to save any money. At the end of each month, I have practically nothing. Recently I had to pay $300 to have a filling replaced (and another one at the same time since they had to go through the first one to get to the other one... it was the only way) and when i was there, the fill-in dental assistant punched a hole in my wisdom tooth with the rubber dam clamp, so i had to go back in two weeks later and have it removed. That was another $100 out of my pocket. I had to put it on my credit card because I didn't have the money, but didn't want to be in agony anymore.
I can't afford a winter coat. It would cost me at least $200 for one. I wear a big hoodie that I bought four years ago. It doesn't keep the cold out much (and not the wet at all). I haven't had boots in years. I have to buy $20 running shoes... which I need to replace now, 'cause they have huge cracks in the soles and leak water. >___>
It sure would be nice to make more than $10k a year.
I was a busser at Tim Horton's - essentially a dishwasher - for about a year. While I agree that they're underpaid, the point that it's not very 'valuable' in that anyone can do it (not to mention, for every one that gets the job there are twenty more willing to do it) is valid. From an economics standpoint, minimum wage is fine for dishwashers. Let the high school kiddies take those cruddy jobs and learn what it's like to work. However, I do think the attitude towards people in these jobs needs to change. I always got treated like I had a lower social status than a pile of shit on a stack of used syringes from both sides of the counter. There was a sort of meme that'd go around every time we got a particularly bad customer: "We need a douchebag button. Every time the customer is a dick to the staff, you charge them an extra dollar". And you know who were NEVER douchebags? Our fellow underpaid-employee cops who also get mistreated all too often.
I'm out of a job at present and may well take a retail job or work at a theater, but frankly I'd like something that pays enough that I can move out of my parents' place. So far I haven't found a job that pays enough or a room cheap enough (at least, not one where the potential roommates aren't creepy and/or drug addicts) and I've lived in BC for three years now - I used to live in Alberta too, and often wonder if I shouldn't have stayed there. I'm here for the animation schools, but I might just move provinces again after I'm done (first having to actually get in). I'm glad minimum wage is going up, but the wage isn't the only factor that needs to change if people are to live where they want to comfortably.
: mediar December 05, 2011, 08:06:54 -07:00
Police, firefighters and emts should be making more money then what they get now. Sure sports star are fun to watch, but the above 3 save/protect lives. Its crappy that they make so little compaired to a sports star, that will probably require their assistence. :/
Again, the point is that sports stars and actors generate revenue- lots of it. That is why they are paid so well. It has nothing to do with who does the most good.
: Ember December 06, 2011, 07:08:41 -07:00
Again, the point is that sports stars and actors generate revenue- lots of it. That is why they are paid so well. It has nothing to do with who does the most good.
I know why they get the big cheques, just shows that us as a people would rather be intertained, then saved from a burning building. *shrug*
: mediar December 06, 2011, 07:55:44 -07:00
I know why they get the big cheques, just shows that us as a people would rather be intertained, then saved from a burning building. *shrug*
Firefighting/EMT/Police work is not a self funding industry. That is to say that they do not raise the money (or even close) to pay for their own jobs.
They are almost fully paid for by external forces.
The entertainment industries have a product, the sale of which covers their own costs. Because of this, the people who pull in the most revenue (also providing pay cheques for all the people around them) get paid very well.
It's not a matter of social priority, it is a matter of basic economics.
: Ember December 06, 2011, 09:50:51 -07:00
Firefighting/EMT/Police work is not a self funding industry. That is to say that they do not raise the money (or even close) to pay for their own jobs.
They are almost fully paid for by external forces.
The entertainment industries have a product, the sale of which covers their own costs. Because of this, the people who pull in the most revenue (also providing pay cheques for all the people around them) get paid very well.
It's not a matter of social priority, it is a matter of basic economics.
Bottom line is that people still rather pay thousands of dollars on sports teams, rather than their local emergency services.
entertaiment > personal safty
I gotta side with Mediar on this issue... My two cents would be why should acting pay upwards in the millions of dollars PER movie for some actors? That seems excessively greedy, pay them well, yes, but THAT much? That would be like paying a cashier $50/hr simply cause they look pretty...
Society always seems to pay out the highest to those who only entertain or simply sit on their asses in managerial positions in contrast to how poorly payed the most essential services are. Emergency services, airline pilots, chefs and line cooks. Do we want a society in which our most stressed and poverty-distracted workers are the ones who have the most important jobs? I don't know about you but I get concerned that the person making my food is payed so poorly when it could only take that one time of the chef being all "shit shit, how am I gonna make rent?!" and then forgetting to fully cook my chicken or something and then suddenly I got botulism. And for the love of all things decent don't try and say "well maybe he/ she shouldn't be working that job" cause that's like saying the best way to fix a broke car is to just put more broken parts into it.
Simply put...
Celebrity fucking up = Funny/ stupid/
Service worker fucking up = Potential harm.. even possible death though not likely.
What Ember is saying is that the movies make millions of dollars.
Arson doesn't make millions of dollars, that's why civic fire fighters get paid less.
It isn't a matter of wrong versus right, it's just the way things are. :-\
Just because it's the way things are doesn't mean it's right. Slave labourers at Foxconn help bring in billions of dollars for the company. So does that mean each of the thousands of workers there deserved fat multi-million dollar cheques? The attitude that "it's economics" or "that's the way it is" is one of the reasons that big business have gotten away with their crimes for so long. (One of many, many reasons.) A good physician should be paid far more than someone who spends his day throwing a ball in a hole, but sadly, it will never be that way because people just accept it.
: Ember December 05, 2011, 05:20:17 -07:00
People who are actors or play sports are paid so much because they bring in a lot of money- they are a product being sold.
Dishwashers are not paid much because although it is a hard job, it is a mindless unskilled job that anyone can do. Further, if people like dishwashers were paid more then the cost of their wages would be handed down the chain. Your complaint would then be "Why are restaurant meals so expensive?!"
Minimum wage really should be higher, but minimum wage jobs are shitty jobs. I think that the real problem is that certain jobs shouldn't be minimum wage jobs in the first place.
I do see what you are saying Ember, basically a EMT or Cop OR Firefighter generate no revenue in there job they are just a essential services that is payed by taxes and for them to get paid more we need to pay more I get that. BUT the astronomical amount that a sports star makes or movie star makes is ludicrous look at Charlie Shean for example at one point that man was making approximately 22 million a season. I know him being on the show brought in the money for all the other people crew, security, rentals, set, lights and all that, but how much of his 22 million payed any of those people not a cent. And Drake I see where you are coming from as well with you wanting to know for a fact that the people flying your plane or cooking your food is concentrating on there job not how they are going to put food on there table. Interestingly you sound like Michael Moore in that aspect who incidentally has a hard on for Canada. Watch (Capitalism a love story) I KNOW he is extremely prejudice and one sided BUT he still makes some interesting points. As for the Occupy people I believe only about a third of the people there could actually tell you a legit reason to be there sadly a large amount where just homeless people who saw it as a opportunity.
Ember again I also see what you mean with the paying a dish washer more just brings up cost no one else wants to pay okay yes but my main point with being a dish washer is you still get treated like you aren't worth the gum on the street just because you are a dish washer hell anyone that can do that job for any amount of real time I have respect for. I think you will find real chefs will have a high respect for there dish washers especially at expensive small restaurants. They know that is that dish washer walks out things will start to fall apart.
Thank you :-3
I actually did see that movie of his and I honest agree with him. The lack of a decent wage and respect for some of society's most relied upon services is just horribly disgusting. Would like to see a week where every "no body" just walked off their poverty wage job, almost all stores would be up shit creek without even a boat, forget the paddle lol.
: Icey Dominus December 07, 2011, 01:15:43 -07:00I think you will find real chefs will have a high respect for there dish washers especially at expensive small restaurants. They know that is that dish washer walks out things will start to fall apart.
Thank you :-3
Dishwashers are treated one of two ways:
They are respected/revered for their patience and determination. This leads to more responsibilities and eventually a promotion to doing prep in the kitchen. One day someone doesn't show up for their shift, and they get asked to stay late and work the line. This leads to a full time job on the line where they work their way through all the stations and eventually move on to other restaurants and a fantastic career in the food industry.
Or...
They are treated like shit.
Either way, if you're willing to wash dishes for minimum wage and not complain about it, you can pretty much walk in to any restaurant in the world and have a job. You don't even need to speak the language. That unfortunately tends to be the problem in the lower mainland. Many restaurants will hire new immigrants at minimum wage because they'll work it, and any language barrier is almost irrelevant.
Just keep a positive attitude when working lower line jobs. Just because you're on a lower rung doesn't mean you don't represent the company. Putting effort into your job and getting noticed will usually lead to better things. If not, then you're most likely in a dead end career and should be either looking for a better job or getting educated at the same time.
An actor gets paid for keeping a certain appearance, reputation, and health. I image they just get paid per gig. No retirement funding. I've met firefighters that work for half there life then go on easy street. Being able to stay home while still getting paid enough to buy new trucks, new boats, go on vacations. All without ever having to work again.
: Carthage December 07, 2011, 03:28:53 -07:00
Dishwashers are treated one of two ways:
They are respected/revered for their patience and determination. This leads to more responsibilities and eventually a promotion to doing prep in the kitchen. One day someone doesn't show up for their shift, and they get asked to stay late and work the line. This leads to a full time job on the line where they work their way through all the stations and eventually move on to other restaurants and a fantastic career in the food industry.
Or...
They are treated like shit.
Either way, if you're willing to wash dishes for minimum wage and not complain about it, you can pretty much walk in to any restaurant in the world and have a job. You don't even need to speak the language. That unfortunately tends to be the problem in the lower mainland. Many restaurants will hire new immigrants at minimum wage because they'll work it, and any language barrier is almost irrelevant.
Hm...I'm completing my major and minor in a year and a half's time and my part time job on campus is a dishwasher at Vanier's.
Hm, now that we're talking about this subject, I'd like to spend a moment to bring up something I eyed upon in Reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/n5j6m/one_of_the_most_underappreciated_jobs_in_the/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/n5j6m/one_of_the_most_underappreciated_jobs_in_the/)
Ahhh yes I kept on meaning to mention the garbage man but in a ironic way I cept forgetting about thme
Economics aside, the modern world can do without a man running around on grass while carrying a chunk of inflated vinyl. It can't do without the man who removes trash or unblocks sewers.
And the world can do without paintings. And music. And parades. And nice clothes.
But people like those things. So we have them anyways.
Don't be dumb.
: Ember December 09, 2011, 03:52:35 -07:00
And the world can do without paintings. And music. And parades. And nice clothes.
But people like those things. So we have them anyways.
Don't be dumb.
Artistic expression seldom pays anything remotely even decent unless you buddy up with some corporation who is gonna take a majority of your earnings anywho. Kinda like the old music pirating argument, the actual artist doing the work gets meh cash unless they are famous, its the producing company that gets the windfall profits.
Clothes is debatable seeing as shit is either mass manufactured or its sweat shop work meaning the profits once more go to some desk jockey with a 5- 6 figure income. Besides, clothes are a necessity, throwing a ball isnt.
Last I checked with parades they were funded by organizations and city councils and any profit they do bring in is usually charity. Even though they are fun, they are not done with massive profits as the goal, at least not for the individual to pocket.
Sports stars though, even after their agents get their juicy cut, get a massive paycheck that even many businesses would never dream to see. One mans/ womans salary for playing sports can easily trump a medium sized business or even those small- medium business chains that's the disconnect that I think Icey was also getting at in his original post.
Sports stars and actors attract people to spend money. That money funds the whole rest of the industry. That industry supplies thousands of jobs. They are rewarded financially for creating an entire industry that wouldn't exist if they didn't.
A sports star or an actor does much much more for the common good than one police officer, or one fireman. They are responsible for keeping thousands of people employed. They are rewarded for this.
(I may regret posting this lol, but I might as well just throw this in. And you don't have to agree with me on any of what I'm about to say, I just want to throw in my own opinion on the topic. Also sorry for my shitty grammar or wording. I may or may not make sense, but I'll try my best. x3)
Think of it this way:
Actors and sports stars, celebrities in general, provide us with day to day entertainment, whether it comes from a CD, a radio, a computer, a TV, or in person. A police officer, a fire fighter ands ambulance paramedics equally do the same but in a different way. They do things for our safety and our well beings as humans. Without them so much more things would happen and half the population would be gone by now. For instance, fire fighters will put out fires and run in to a burning building, risking their own lives to save ours. Without paramedics people wouldn't be able to make it to the hospital with assistance, considering the fact that inside the vehicles they have a small but good amount of medical equipment. Without police officers, our streets wouldn't be as somewhat safe as they are nowadays. I'm not saying our streets are safe, I can admit things still happen, but that's why cops are there. To help in most situations where lives could be at danger. Without all this, the common good wouldn't be safe. Doctors and nurses are another essential thing, because in hospitals and care centres people need their medical expertise, and it helps us get through our days. Whether it be curing the common cold or trying to find a cure for cancer. Sure it may take a while, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Pharmacists provide us with medicine and antibiotics, without them we we wouldn't get better from every day sicknesses to long term illnesses. Bus drivers, if they never existed, those with vehicles could never go out and have fun on a day to day basis. Not many people can afford cars nowadays and a lot of people are turning to greener alternatives like walking or taking a bus. Though in this case, I don't think people would want to walk a certain distance if it's too far, hence why we have buses with bus drivers. Chefs and servers and dishwashers all work together to maintain a well balanced restaurant. Without any of these components, the restaurant itself could crash and burn, in the sense that the business won't continue without the proper staff to keep it running properly. Without restaurants, big events wouldn't have very many places to hold their events at, and people wouldn't be able to celebrate special occasions and enjoy a delicious meal while enjoying each others company. People employed in hotels, whether they be maids or concierge, without them, people like travellers whether they be foreign or someone local, or even a celebrity, without them we'd have no where to stay if need be. These things could be anywhere between a family reunion, visiting a tourist attraction, going on vacation, a honey moon, a movie premier, or even a convention. This is just a small list of things that factor in our daily lives, and without them where would we be? Sure, celebrities are a nice thing to have nowadays, but without the rest we'd practically be nothing.
Just my little opinion on this topic~ Okay, bye 4 nao! ^_^
: Ember December 09, 2011, 07:05:40 -07:00
Sports stars and actors attract people to spend money. That money funds the whole rest of the industry. That industry supplies thousands of jobs. They are rewarded financially for creating an entire industry that wouldn't exist if they didn't.
A sports star or an actor does much much more for the common good than one police officer, or one fireman. They are responsible for keeping thousands of people employed. They are rewarded for this.
Funny thing about that though, without them, those jobs would not evaporate, no single corporation places all their success on one over glorified human. The world hasn't ended when we lost Micheal Jackson, It did not end when we lost John Candy, nor Elvis. To say these people are the reason many jobs exist is giving them a grotesque amount of credit. Saying they are more important than someone who can and most likely has saved a life seems utterly absurd. Lets see a celebrity deal with hostile situations, accidents, or simply knowing how to do any essential function of society... People who make celebrity merchandise or use celebrities to sell their crap just don't suddenly go bankrupt without them. This what we call diversification.
I wont lie, I do like some celebrities, namely movie ones cause they are ones to actually entertain me. But I never glorify them as the foundation of our society as a person to be looked up to as if they are a demi-god. That kinda thinking is why the world is how it is today and why we have this disconnect where the more essential you are to the core function of society, the worse you are treated simply cause you are not some household name who has made a career out of having a sports/ acting talent (acting being a talent just like professional driving, programing, making GOOD tasting food or having vast medical knowledge is, just because one leads to fame doesn't mean its more essential) or to be more honest with today's entertainment and TV "metaphorically jerking off on camera and acting like an average douche bag" Anyone can do that.
A thousand jobs lost is tragic, Ember, but a non-functional sewage system is mass cholera,, hookworm and other wonderful, often fatal or crippling things waiting to happen. I'd say the economic value of preventing that is pretty high, if you want to boil it right down to economic figures and completely ignore the human impact that people wading in shit get paid shit for the shit they prevent. Simply put, for the actual societal value they generate, celebrities, are overpaid, and sewage workers are underpaid.
I always thought plumbers have a pretty good wage, don't they?
Perhaps not when compared to celebrity entertainers of course but they still make pretty good money.
Yes plumbers do make decent money its a trade and most mind not ALL only most Tradesmen make decent money.
Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism? Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.
If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it. Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what? If so, move to Cuba! Move to Hungary! There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.
Just because we feel like we cannot do that job, due to pressures of schooling, education, experience, or just plain luck, does not mean those who manage to get to that higher level should not be allowed to. That's the entire idea of capitalism.
It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT. It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are. Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less. They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money. Don't believe me? Try visiting a hospital here vs the US. You will see it first hand.
Just for some clarification
Transit bus drivers are paid very well depending on what your operating and after training you can make upwards of $28 an hour.
RCMP .. They pay you to train at DEPOT $500 a week and feed you and free boarding for you.
Right from their website
Competitive salaries; increasing from $48,104 to $77,944, over the first 3 years of service;
By the end of your 3rd of General duty you make $77,944 salary How is that underpaid? That is a very livable wage.
It gets even better when to specialize in something.
Buss drivers and cops are not underpaid. Certainly overworked though
: Aphinity December 19, 2011, 10:20:52 -07:00
Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism? Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.
If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it. Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what? If so, move to Cuba! Move to Hungary! There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.
Just because we feel like we cannot do that job, due to pressures of schooling, education, experience, or just plain luck, does not mean those who manage to get to that higher level should not be allowed to. That's the entire idea of capitalism.
It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT. It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are. Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less. They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money. Don't believe me? Try visiting a hospital here vs the US. You will see it first hand.
Eeeeexcept for the fact US health care is pretty much a fancy pyramid scheme where the insurance companies get the bulk of the cash, doctors get good pay, but for the stuff they do, they deserve it. The US health care system though has always been about profits. Profits before life is not the best policy when it comes to human life. That is unless the people are okay with how many deaths such a system causes.
Socialism VS capitalism wasn't the argument here. Otherwise we would have all been arguing about exact same wages. People saying they wish there was something more than just super rich VS poor as shit doesn't mean we want socialism. The best payed people in North America as pencil pushers who shove money around in circles, even when they screw the pooch so hard it dies, they still get massive payouts. To me the economic system we embrace seems rather anti-american. Once again, to call people who simply want to beat the poverty line "Socialists" is jumping the shark. To me it seems like the same mindset that was had back when slavery was up on the table to be abolished. I am sure back then people were calling it some sort of extremist moment because it went against the status quo of dirt cheap or even free labor when in turn the owner raked in all the profits. To me that shares a lot of ironic similarities with our modern economic structure. Just today instead of it being races taken advantage of its any person simply just trying to get by in this world, god forbid if they speak up about it being unfair that they get over worked for minimum wage, while the managers/owners who at best push pencils get the vast sum of profits and even increases when business is doing well while employees see no benefits to them for their hard work. we are raised to see it as right that there are two classes of citizens in our capitalist countries, those who are the manipulators, and those to be manipulated.
Hm...or should we emulate the Quebec system and provide more reliable financial support? Last I checked, British Columbia has the highest rates of child poverty (14%) compared to other provinces. :popcorn:
: Aphinity December 19, 2011, 10:20:52 -07:00
Does anyone actually realize that this entire thread is basically arguing for socialism, vs capitalism? Communist Cuba vs America.. if you will.
First and foremost, communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) and socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) are two distinct political constructs.
Second, both the United States and Canada have some form of Socialism integrated into the operation of their federal, state/provincial, and municipal operations. This can be seen in everything from the highway system (usually federally and/or provincially run) to the water systems (municipally run.)
If something pays better, it is our right as Canadian citizens to try for that job so we can benefit from it. Would you prefer everyone to make the same wage no matter what? If so, move to Cuba! Move to Hungary! There are lots of communist and socialist regimes to choose from that will cater to your feelings.
It may well be our
right but as has been mentioned in this thread on a few occasions now, there is a certain degree of nepotism and arrogance present in almost every industry. That, combined with an increasing number of applicants and decreasing number of available positions means that employers can reject almost any applicant for almost any reason and usually not need to justify it.
It may seem unfair, but nobody is stopping you from moving past being a taxi driver, dish washer, or EMT. It more depends on what your PRIORITIES are. Personally, I'd rather have doctors and EMTs that earn less. They are doing it for the real reasons of helping people, vs the money. Don't believe me? Try visiting a hospital here vs the US. You will see it first hand.
While in theory the only person stopping you is you, in practice many jobs currently pay only enough to keep you exactly where you are. Any desire to move beyond that point requires further education, which requires more money. Many people driving taxis and washing dishes would really rather be doing anything else, but because of what they are paid, can't afford to get the training they need and pay all their bills.
I won't argue Canadian vs. American medical services. Doctors in the US are usually grossly overpaid by insurance companies based on what tests and treatments they run. Doctors in BC are paid by the provincial government (Another example of socialism). But have you noticed how long it takes to see a specialist? Or the lack of Family Physicians? These are things that could be helped (not necessarily solved) by an increase in their wages. General Practicioners (Family Doctors) could pay off their student loans more quickly, which wouldn't drive them into specializing, meaning we'd have more family doctors. The doctors who chose to specialize wouldn't need to specialize in the high-paying fields like neuro-surgery just to pay off their educations.
So you see, this thread isn't arguing for Socialism because it's already here. It isn't arguing for Communism because we certainly don't want that here. It isn't arguing against Capitalism either. In fact, if anything it's making an argument to help boost all the capitalist desires of every worker out there. A little extra money in everyone's pockets would help people buy the things they need and want, which means more money circulating, and more money being spent. The great circle of economics.
I love that some many of you guys have so much awesome info its exciting and very interesting to read. My original idea for this thred was simply some people are unappreciated such as the dish washer, the BC Hydro electricians, bus drivers, police and fuck allot of people. I also made the point that some are very under payed for the service they provide but that wasnt the WHOLE point to this. Money and wage is just a part.
I know allot of you guys do this but perhaps next time you get off the bus or out of a taxi say thanks, or you can be really brave an go up to a cop and say thanks for being here some perhaps wont take that very well but hell if I was a cop and someone thanked me for being a cop and keeping my home safe, that would make my day. I am sorry if I am a little off the wall but I think everyone should make a conscious effort once a day to say thanks to someone who dosnt generally get thanked for doing there job.
AS for the argument about Communism/ Socialism/ and well fucked up Capitalism I LOVE THESE ARGUMENTS!
I had written out what I wanted to say on that but really Carthage already said it for me couldn't have said it any better thanks for that.
Thank you
: Carthage December 20, 2011, 03:26:06 -07:00
First and foremost, communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) and socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) are two distinct political constructs.
Thank you for speaking my mind. :)
: Carthage December 20, 2011, 03:26:06 -07:00
So you see, this thread isn't arguing for Socialism because it's already here. It isn't arguing for Communism because we certainly don't want that here. It isn't arguing against Capitalism either. In fact, if anything it's making an argument to help boost all the capitalist desires of every worker out there. A little extra money in everyone's pockets would help people buy the things they need and want, which means more money circulating, and more money being spent. The great circle of economics.
So, essentially, you agree with me that people should get out and improve themselves to get the better job, rather than sitting around and wishing that they got paid better for what they do now? That's all I was meaning by what I said, so I'm glad you seem to be indicating an agreement to that.
To state that there are less jobs only means the area you are pursuing is over-saturated. Believe me, I know this all too well being in the IT sector. I tried to move on and I failed, so I wound up back where I started again. I don't blame the industry, economic climate, or employer for that. I blame myself for not being able to change my focus sufficiently to move beyond where I am today. One day, I will, and I know I can.
You know what happens when there are too many applicants for a job? The wages for that job decrease. You know what happens then? People move to other fields. BC saw a LOT of that when high tech boom became a trades boom, and now we're in a trades recession again. Pretty soon, all the people who have been working as electricians and carpenters will be back working as data analysts and HR managers. It's how the economy works.
Communism is an evolved form of socialism. The same? No. I used it as a catch word to make people realize that when taken to an extreme, the arguments stated in this thread reflect that line of thinking in many ways. :)
: Aphinity December 20, 2011, 02:12:33 -07:00
So, essentially, you agree with me that people should get out and improve themselves to get the better job, rather than sitting around and wishing that they got paid better for what they do now? That's all I was meaning by what I said, so I'm glad you seem to be indicating an agreement to that.
I absolutely agree that people should be getting out there and improving themselves. Lots of people want to improve themselves but because of what they are being paid can't afford to. Not everyone, but probably more that you think.
I used it as a catch word to make people realize that when taken to an extreme, the arguments stated in this thread reflect that line of thinking in many ways.
Which arguments are those?
: Carthage December 20, 2011, 02:54:01 -07:00
I absolutely agree that people should be getting out there and improving themselves. Lots of people want to improve themselves but because of what they are being paid can't afford to. Not everyone, but probably more that you think.
Not to push this to the point of argument, but that's what student loans are intended for. Not wanting to go into debt to improve yourself is not a valid excuse considering the amount of debt the average person can carry today and still get by.
: Carthage December 20, 2011, 02:54:01 -07:00
Which arguments are those?
I believe the socialist and capitalist stances are both represented in the opinions offered within this thread. There have been people discussing both the side of fair wages for people who work hard, and the other side of how economics works around the money that the jobs bring in so wages reflect on that. Both are seeking ultimately different ideals and both are not wrong.. they're just ideologically different.
Just my opinion folks! :D It's an interesting discussion nonetheless.
: Aphinity December 20, 2011, 07:33:04 -07:00
Not to push this to the point of argument, but that's what student loans are intended for. Not wanting to go into debt to improve yourself is not a valid excuse considering the amount of debt the average person can carry today and still get by.
I'm not opposed to going into debt for the sake of self-improvement. I've done it a couple of times myself. The jobs market and relative payscale still has a certain impact on your capacity to repay the loans. I'm still paying off a student loan I took out almost ten years ago. :P
Mind you, my industry is about as stable as a manic-depressive housecat with ADD.
: Tef December 19, 2011, 11:22:24 -07:00
Hm...or should we emulate the Quebec system and provide more reliable financial support? Last I checked, British Columbia has the highest rates of child poverty (14%) compared to other provinces. :popcorn:
I am gonna go on a completley illogical tangent here and blame that one on the fact BC caters to retirees and immigrants. As long as we keep those groups happy, it doesn't matter how many home-grown kids starve in the governments eyes. Our government crippled BC by doing this and then they think the cure is to ship in exchange students and more rich retirees instead of helping people already living here.
To further add, I will agree with former posts.. The market has become grossly saturated. I had a perfect first hand experience when I was living in Nanaimo and the unemployment rate was up to 16% (No joke) I had multiple interviews, even when I brought relevant skills to the table I was turned away or at times even borderline insulted (in a coy way) But usually these fell into one of three groups 1: My former IT work (many didn't wanna hire someone who actually had a good job at one point, they assumed I was un-reliable some how.. for holding a long term IT job..) 2: I am a guy (literally.. retail turned me away cause I wasn't a pretty girly face..) 3: My age (since I am in my early 20s with lots of work experience, this would dictate a higher starting wage, why hire an experience guy for more cash when you can hire a desperate teen who can be more easily fooled and disposed of?)
Employers these days literally do try to find any reason to not hire you.
I went for a bakery job once... on my resume I had two bakery jobs with good references to boot, however, when I applied at one grocery chain and got an interview, the head manager of the store kept bringing into question my IT past. I was honest with him about how the company was shrinking and I was unfortunately layed off. I went on to try and bring my relevant bakery skills/ experience into the light to show him I would be a good asset as I have done this work before. But no matter how f-king hard I tried this manager was hell bent on trying to use my IT job against me to make me seem like a sleaze and a un-reliable person.. Its pretty shit times when you can't get a job with a place that has an opening, especially when you fit the bill nearly perfectly.
This whole modern day situation has had a really nasty effect with employers, employees are so expendable that managers can back stab and make an employees life hell and if the employee breaks down or stresses out and quits, they just hire on another person for usually cheaper wage, treat them like shit till they leave as well. Mix, stir, repeat.
: Drake Wingfire December 20, 2011, 10:55:26 -07:00
I am gonna go on a completley illogical tangent here and blame that one on the fact BC caters to retirees and immigrants. As long as we keep those groups happy, it doesn't matter how many home-grown kids starve in the governments eyes. Our government crippled BC by doing this and then they think the cure is to ship in exchange students and more rich retirees instead of helping people already living here.
No, no, it's not a tangent, don't you worry. I just got done with a UBC course on social and economic inequality for the term and I think it might be great for me to throw in my two cents.
This is precisely what Paul Kershaw would state. Forget considering just Vancouver, forget considering just the province of British Columbia - Canada does not work for all generations.
http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/ (http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/)
To add to your point, I suggest Control-F'ing "Generational Disconnect".
Point Two that's more applicable to most of us furs:
Most of us essentially fall under the Generation Squeeze gap.
http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/2011/11/23/income-splitting-is-inadequate-for-generation-squeeze/ (http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/2011/11/23/income-splitting-is-inadequate-for-generation-squeeze/)
Well, I could allow a bit of an exception in terms of Quebec...in a sense.
: Tef December 20, 2011, 11:54:36 -07:00
No, no, it's not a tangent, don't you worry. I just got done with a UBC course on social and economic inequality for the term and I think it might be great for me to throw in my two cents.
This is precisely what Paul Kershaw would state. Forget considering just Vancouver, forget considering just the province of British Columbia - Canada does not work for all generations.
http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/ (http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/)
To add to your point, I suggest Control-F'ing "Generational Disconnect".
Point Two that's more applicable to most of us furs:
Most of us essentially fall under the Generation Squeeze gap.
http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/2011/11/23/income-splitting-is-inadequate-for-generation-squeeze/ (http://blogs.ubc.ca/newdealforfamilies/2011/11/23/income-splitting-is-inadequate-for-generation-squeeze/)
Well, I could allow a bit of an exception in terms of Quebec...in a sense.
Just finished reading the articles, I don't know if I should chuckle going "haha I knew I was right" or just lose all respect for the older generations because of how transparent they are wanting everything for themselves. In a sense it just sickens me at my core as its... well its hard to make a comparison. I see it as a joy-ride on our economic system. The majority don't care how badly trashed it is when they kick the bucket, so long as they didn't have to sacrifice even a penny themselves.
I can see the logic behind income splitting, but just like the BC minimum wage its all too little too late, sure its nice that at least something is progressing forward and helping little by little, but it was delayed for so long that the ground it would need to cover to equalize again is seen as ridiculous. This whole economical brew simply spells bad times for BC as the general stage seems to be set for a 10-20year generation butt fuck (tangent here) where kids in that time wont be properly raised cause their parents have no time for them. BC will see a huge drop in skilled workers due to constant education cost hikes, our welfare system will be over burdened. Last but not least there will be no retirement net left after the boomers I think. They get to have their dine and dash and the rest of us foot the bill.
The only people who deserve more are hard workers. The kind of job they have shouldn't matter. There's a lot I want to say, but my mind is a little tired at the moment. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have more to say.
: Aeturnus December 21, 2011, 04:54:46 -07:00
The only people who deserve more are hard workers. The kind of job they have shouldn't matter. There's a lot I want to say, but my mind is a little tired at the moment. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have more to say.
I think I know what you are going to say. Basically the people that have those jobs like dish washers and such deserve more if they are e exceptional dish washer and put effort into there job. Unlike the other people who dont try that hard and expect more.
Did I get your basic idea?
: Icey Dominus December 21, 2011, 07:44:03 -07:00
I think I know what you are going to say. Basically the people that have those jobs like dish washers and such deserve more if they are e exceptional dish washer and put effort into there job. Unlike the other people who dont try that hard and expect more.
Did I get your basic idea?
I think at its core that's what most of us are trying to express her. I mean I don't expect to be Donald trump by washing dishes, washing cars, doing IT work etc. but the notion is that a high-stress service job should pay fair compensation for the amount of shit the average worker has to put up with. Currently our core under-appreciated service sector jobs are a lose lose scenario for anyone but the owners/managers, poor compensation and poor treatment are the most common tune sung.
: Aeturnus December 21, 2011, 04:54:46 -07:00
There's a lot I want to say, but my mind is a little tired at the moment. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have more to say.
If only you were willing to work harder on your posts, maybe you'd get ahead on these forums!