http://www.sibfox.com/foxes/ (http://www.sibfox.com/foxes/)
SO... FREAKIN... CUTE!
Incidentally, these foxes are featured in this months National Geographic... On the cover no less :thumbs: !
Now only if I can connect with my kitty cat DX
They are very cute... but $6000! O__O
And thats the only reason I don't have one :P. Most of the cost is the paperwork and shipping. They're still classified as an 'exotic pet' and there is only one breeding population currently. We'll see if the popularity booms after that National Geo article (it discusses domestication etc.) and if the company will allow outbreeding. That will bring the price down.
Oh man. I want a fox. Ill get one, one day.
Right now I have two Chihuahuas. c:
~~shadowwolf
Well I was wanting a Machbagral in the future but now that I have seen those kits, I want a fox instead!
I've always kind of wanted a red fox... but instead, I am getting a cat! Probably on Thursday or Friday! SPCA here I come!
: zenia March 01, 2011, 09:54:54 -07:00
I've always kind of wanted a red fox... but instead, I am getting a cat! Probably on Thursday or Friday! SPCA here I come!
Congrats on going to get a new kitty! Always good to adopt. There are alot of poor animals in need of a good home. c:
~~shadowwolf
: Foxxphyre March 01, 2011, 09:28:39 -07:00
And thats the only reason I don't have one :P. Most of the cost is the paperwork and shipping. They're still classified as an 'exotic pet' and there is only one breeding population currently. We'll see if the popularity booms after that National Geo article (it discusses domestication etc.) and if the company will allow outbreeding. That will bring the price down.
Not to piss on your parade, but it's illegal. I'm just saying this because I've already tried. :P
I wrote the environmental ministry several times, and spoke with reps from there and the CFIAA. As of April 2009, a lot of animals - including all forms of vulpus - were added to the 'banned' list because of that idiot who had the pet tiger that killed someone. The only way to get a pet fox in Canada these days is to obtain one illegally, or opt for zoo status and pay in the thousands for appropriate facilities. Even if you do get a license for zookeeping, there's no guarantee you'll get your exotic animals. The CFIAA can still refuse the shipment as they see fit, and you'll have a difficult time finding a breeder anywhere in Canada given that the exotic pet is likely illegal to keep outside of a zoo. Then of course there is the quarantine, vet references, vaccinations, inspections, etc.
Sorry, not trying to be an ass. I've already tried to get a fennec here and no dice. The Evironmental Ministry has heavy restrictions on keeping exotic animals, they simply don't want people having them as pets. Even zoos and sanctuaries are receiving scrutiny at the moment. I know many of them have had their stock seized and put down lately because of the new laws. :(
Hence the cost... I'm not sure if fennec are domestic or not... but these ARE domesticated. Part of the reason they're so expensive is the fact that the sale company greases the wheels with the authorities. It would be interesting to see what they say. Maybe I'll email them.
If I were to do a documentary on domesticated Foxes, this would be another excellent starting point.
I've had the burning desire for owning a red fox for quite a while, but I know it's now never going to happen. (At least, if I continue to live here, it's never going to happen) But $6000 for one is too hefty... (as much as a Sony EX1 camcorder) What I'd do is find a place that breeds them that doesn't slap a huge price on it, find a fox cub that was rejected by it's mother, and care for it for the rest of it's life. Kind of like this person did: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.vixey.cz&act=url (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=www.vixey.cz&act=url) ( The site is originally in Czech. This person's Flickr gallery also has pictures of his pet fox: http://www.flickr.com/photos/najlvin/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/najlvin/) )
Well, I'm not sure if anyone else has successfully domesticated one... otherwise you're looking at feral or bred for fur and that comes with the same general risks as raising any other wild animal. Again, we'll see what the future brings.
I've read about the russian silver fox before; they were originally bred for fur. They started breeding the tamer ones because they were easier to kill, then some one thought "Hey! I bet these guys would make good pets!" and BAM. Domestication.
One of the things that gets me about the whole exotic animal dispute, is whenever an "exotic" animal bites some one, it's because it's a wild animal and can't be tamed/trained/domesticated. But whenever a dog bites some one or something, it's because it's a bad dog, or had bad owners, or a combination of both. But how do these people think we got pet dogs and cats in the first place? Honestly.
On that note, I want a fox so bad. Me and jester thought about getting one when we first read the silver fox article, but we didn't come across the website. Now that we have it... It's time to repeal some exotic pet laws...
And again, Ren, the tiger wasn't a pet, they were like an exotic petting zoo or something. The guy also had a lemur. It was pretty awesome. Nor was it the guy's fault that the chick was stupid enough to wear a flowy summer dress in a cage with an adolescent tiger. My 4 year old cat still attacks the ankles of my pj pants. I can't imagine what she was thinking.
: Foxxphyre March 01, 2011, 08:10:06 -07:00
http://www.sibfox.com/foxes/ (http://www.sibfox.com/foxes/)
SO... FREAKIN... CUTE!
Incidentally, these foxes are featured in this months National Geographic... On the cover no less :thumbs: !
Wow! They finally started selling them. That siberian breeding program has been going on for about 50yrs now. I saw them on a documentary about dogs.
: EmoFox March 02, 2011, 02:34:32 -07:00
I've read about the russian silver fox before; they were originally bred for fur. They started breeding the tamer ones because they were easier to kill, then some one thought "Hey! I bet these guys would make good pets!" and BAM. Domestication.
One of the things that gets me about the whole exotic animal dispute, is whenever an "exotic" animal bites some one, it's because it's a wild animal and can't be tamed/trained/domesticated. But whenever a dog bites some one or something, it's because it's a bad dog, or had bad owners, or a combination of both. But how do these people think we got pet dogs and cats in the first place? Honestly.
On that note, I want a fox so bad. Me and jester thought about getting one when we first read the silver fox article, but we didn't come across the website. Now that we have it... It's time to repeal some exotic pet laws...
And again, Ren, the tiger wasn't a pet, they were like an exotic petting zoo or something. The guy also had a lemur. It was pretty awesome. Nor was it the guy's fault that the chick was stupid enough to wear a flowy summer dress in a cage with an adolescent tiger. My 4 year old cat still attacks the ankles of my pj pants. I can't imagine what she was thinking.
The guy had the animal declawed so he could let it into his house and play with it every once and a while. What do you mean it wasn't his pet?! >_<
Furthermore his 'petting zoo' was missing several licenses and permits for the sort of zoological specimens he was keeping, and as I recall the tiger was missing any form of a birth certificate, so nobody knew where it came from, whether it was born wild or excess stock from a zoo. They couldn't prove that he smuggled it, but there was nothing to say that the animal was legally born and bred in Canada either. As for the licenses, he was keeping exotic animals since before many of them were required, and because of where he lived he somehow managed to slip under the environmental ministries radar for many years. Quite the scandal and embarrassing for them. That's one of the reasons he didn't receive heavier charges, somebody should have been keeping a closer watch on people like him but they weren't.
If his facilities were up to par, stupid chicks in flimsy dresses wouldn't be able to go get themselves mauled by tigers. As I recall he was keeping the animal in a small run made from chain-link fencing. You look at professional zookeepers, and they literally have concrete walls and trenches dug between guest viewing places and the animals.
It should also be noted that the tiger was overweight and unhealthy.
I don't think he was a bad person. I think he was simply ignorant.
On one hand I'm glad that there are new laws and restrictions in place so these awful events can be avoided, on the other hand it's unfortunate that the restrictions are so extreme as to outright ban all exotic animals for many potentially responsible owners. To be honest, the majority of people I've seen who've decided they want a pet tiger/bear/fox/wolf/anaconda/whatever aren't responsible, and don't have the slightest clue about zoology or caretaking, but there is a minority of people who are. It's a shame some of us may never have that opportunity. Taking care of such animals is extremely expensive and time consuming, but it isn't impossible, and it is extremely rewarding. :)
: Renwaldo March 02, 2011, 09:59:52 -07:00
The guy had the animal declawed so he could let it into his house and play with it every once and a while. What do you mean it wasn't his pet?! >_<
Furthermore his 'petting zoo' was missing several licenses and permits for the sort of zoological specimens he was keeping, and as I recall the tiger was missing any form of a birth certificate, so nobody knew where it came from, whether it was born wild or excess stock from a zoo. They couldn't prove that he smuggled it, but there was nothing to say that the animal was legally born and bred in Canada either. As for the licenses, he was keeping exotic animals since before many of them were required, and because of where he lived he somehow managed to slip under the environmental ministries radar for many years. Quite the scandal and embarrassing for them. That's one of the reasons he didn't receive heavier charges, somebody should have been keeping a closer watch on people like him but they weren't.
If his facilities were up to par, stupid chicks in flimsy dresses wouldn't be able to go get themselves mauled by tigers. As I recall he was keeping the animal in a small run made from chain-link fencing. You look at professional zookeepers, and they literally have concrete walls and trenches dug between guest viewing places and the animals.
It should also be noted that the tiger was overweight and unhealthy.
I don't think he was a bad person. I think he was simply ignorant.
On one hand I'm glad that there are new laws and restrictions in place so these awful events can be avoided, on the other hand it's unfortunate that the restrictions are so extreme as to outright ban all exotic animals for many potentially responsible owners. To be honest, the majority of people I've seen who've decided they want a pet tiger/bear/fox/wolf/anaconda/whatever aren't responsible, and don't have the slightest clue about zoology or caretaking, but there is a minority of people who are. It's a shame some of us may never have that opportunity. Taking care of such animals is extremely expensive and time consuming, but it isn't impossible, and it is extremely rewarding. :)
Then there must have been a completely different incident that happened around the same time with shockingly similar circumstances. The tiger that killed the woman in the story I heard was bred and born by one of the guys' older tigers. I saw the thing on Halloween one year; it was 6 months old at the time, I think, and it was healthy then. He declawed their front paws for safety reasons, but they still had their back claws. You've played with a cat before, right? You know when they grab your hand, hug it, and then scratch the shit out of it with their back paws? That's what happened to the lady. That's also how them disembowel birds, and other prey.
As for the licenses and everything, they had only moved to Bridge Lake maybe a year before it happened, so if he was under the radar it wasn't because of that location, depending on how recently the licenses were required (not sure when that was). I don't know the exact profile of his business, but i know that he brought the animals out in public for people to see.
Anyway, details aside, it still sucks in general. It sucks that it happened, it sucks that her kids saw it happen, and it sucks that other people have to suffer the consequences. Hopefully the ban on exotic pets will be lifted eventually and then I can have my pet fox. :3
Okay, okay, I was showing the website to a friend, did some digging around, and the "domestic silver fox" isn't on the list of "controlled alien species" meaning they're technically not illegal to own. just really expensive.
This list (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlifeactreview/cas/pdf/common-mammals.pdf) which I got from the ministry includes a number of foxes, of which the fennec is included, but not the red fox. the siberian foxes sold on sibfox originated from the silver morph of the red fox, which means that they're technically legal pets.
...Guess what I want for Christmas? :D
Also, the Arctic Fox isn't included on the list either.
If it was bred in Canada by one of his previous tigers no documentation was provided to prove it. If I'm remembering correctly, I'm afraid I don't have the link to the original article anymore.
When I was entertaining the notion of getting a pet fox last year, the 'Canadian Food Inspection Agency' had it noted on their site that, "foxes, skunks, raccoons are not permitted to be imported into Canada at this time." So I'll correct myself, it's not that foxes are illegal to own in Canada per se, there was just no legal means to obtain them. :P I scoured the internet for weeks, and I couldn't find any fur farms or breeders in this country still in business. However the CFIA seems to have changed their rules now:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/heasan/pol/ie-2002-3e.shtml (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/heasan/pol/ie-2002-3e.shtml)
When I read that thing in the winter of 2010 it was quite clear on that particular policy, 'no foxes, skunks or coons at this time.' However that seems to have changed now, and there seems to be several former policies missing. The site says the page hasn't been touched since 2007, but I can guarantee you they've made some major changes there since last year. :roll:
Policies may still vary per province of course. What you see there isn't necessarily true across the country, regulations specific to B.C. may still apply.
If anyone is interested in getting a pet fox, I would recommend actually speaking to a representative from the provincial environmental ministry. They would be able to tell you for certain. The websites seem to be unreliable. :-\
May I also add this: http://www2.canada.com/westerly/story.html?id=e7608076-3c4d-4c19-bc85-2c9ce913b8e1 (http://www2.canada.com/westerly/story.html?id=e7608076-3c4d-4c19-bc85-2c9ce913b8e1)
This was the case of an injured deer that an old lady gave TLC for and eventually won the right to keep thanks to the mayor.
Still people, foxes are not comparable to TIGERS!!!!
FOX (compared size)TIGER
I dug around the link ren posted; they won't give permits for foxes to be imported as personal pets. they WILL however give permits for commercial reasons, say breeding. So... open a breeding farm for domestic foxes in canada? :b
also.. reistark.. wtf? what do tigers have to do with the current conversation flow exactly?
Rei was simply referring to the Idiocy of the Canadian government concerning the banning on exotics.
i suppose that would make sense then.
I would assume that one of the concerns there is, a fox is like a dog, and even a dog can tear a person to pieces under the right circumstances. But dogs have been domesticated for hundreds if not thousands of years. And for some reason that makes them more reliable than "wild" animals, or exotic pets.
Also, I actually googled Fennec foxes earlier, for the first time. So. Cute. But I like red foxes better, :p
Some dogs can tear a person apart... like pit-bulls, German Shephards etc (50-80kg +) foxes are like, 6-8 kgs. A big cat at best.
I had a longer, more thought out post typed up, but then my toddler came over and hit a button and I can't get it back, T_T
Main points were; german shepherds and pitbulls don't weigh 50+ kgs; a pitbull weighs 14-27 kgs, and a german shepherd 30-40 kgs. Red foxes weigh 3-10 kgs. So more like a medium dog than a "big cat". Foxes bones are lighter than dog bones, which explains the weight difference, but also allows them to move quicker. And either way, their jaw is still large enough to rip your jugular out.
The biggest difference is likely attitude; a dog is a hunter, used to taking down larger game, and so I would think is more likely to attack a human than a fox would be; foxes are skittish and don't take down big game. Their fight or flight instinct would have them run before fighting, and since they're so agile and quick, it really wouldn't be hard for them, even if you cornered them, they'd likely just run between your legs.
10kg is top end for cats... but some get that big (maine coons get huuge). A red fox, fully grown, can be carried fairly easily by an adolescent human. Not really sure why we're arguing though :P
On one hand I'm glad that there are new laws and restrictions in place so these awful events can be avoided, on the other hand it's unfortunate that the restrictions are so extreme as to outright ban all exotic animals for many potentially responsible owners. To be honest, the majority of people I've seen who've decided they want a pet tiger/bear/fox/wolf/anaconda/whatever aren't responsible, and don't have the slightest clue about zoology or caretaking, but there is a minority of people who are. It's a shame some of us may never have that opportunity. Taking care of such animals is extremely expensive and time consuming, but it isn't impossible, and it is extremely rewarding. Smiley
Personally I'm glad that they banned this, not simply because of the irresponsible owners issue but because of the fallout that comes as a result of that. How much money do you think is sunk into places like big cat rescue who are essentially doing clean up of the hazardous animals left behind by these owners to prevent them simply being killed instead. I view this as a distraction from more critical and irreversable issues found in the conservation field. We're down to our last 3000 or so tigers in the wild and sometime in the next decade or two we're going to reach a breaking point with them, spending millions on captive tigers in people's homes or at the rescues that have to take them when they get out of hand seems insane to me.
: Foxxphyre March 10, 2011, 02:22:40 -07:00
10kg is top end for cats... but some get that big (maine coons get huuge). A red fox, fully grown, can be carried fairly easily by an adolescent human. Not really sure why we're arguing though :P
But a red fox isn't the *size* of a cat. It's the size of a medium dog. It's only lighter because it's bones are lighter, which only enables it to move quicker. And we were arguing over the true danger of a pet fox on society; size-wise, they could be considered dangerous, but attitude-wise, I think there's little to no danger. :P I like to argue. Sorry.
The politics behind the banning on certain exotics like foxes isn't to do with the animals' size or level of aggression, the ministry is worried mainly about viral illnesses specifically, among other things. They feel there isn't enough information published about rare domesticated species for ordinary people to make informed choices concerning the animals' welfare. The biggest example being that few veterinarians know enough about foxes (or any other exotic, really) to properly treat them, because the programs they took were likely from the perspective of ranching or domestic pet care. There are very few specialists who can treat zoo animals or wild animals, because there isn't a basic demand for them.
The representative I spoke to last year said the laws and regulations are placed and tweaked per the needs of society. Right now, there aren't enough people interested in animal welfare in the area of domesticating or preserving exotics, so that's why the bans were put in place. It wouldn't be cost effective for the government to regulate fox or tiger pet ownership in B.C. given the small portion of the population that is actually involved. It's frusterating for people like us - the minority - but the government really did make the right decision. :-\
If any of you really want a fox badly enough, I encourage you to opt for zoo or sanctuary status. It's a lot of hard work that will likely take years, but the payoff is you'll get to work with the animal you always wanted. Animals on that banned list are still being legally kept and bred in captivity in B.C. by qualified people who've sacrificed the time and money to care for them.
Talk to people from the environmental ministry, the CFIA, and proffessionals in our local sanctuaries and zoos. They'll be able to help you get the information you need. :)
Sometime in the far future I want to work with exotic animals of my own. In the near future I plan to take up and internship at Crittercare in Langley, it's a rehabilitation centre for injured wildlife. If aybody's interested they're always accepting new volunteers.
Good plan! As far as foxes go though... you're probably wrong. Importing them as commercial fur bearing animals is still legal. If you want to farm them for profit, you're allowed, and those animals still require a level of health to get around humane issues so I'm going to assume there are vets able to deal with them. Also, we're part of their natural range... anything they could come into contact with here, so could our dogs/cats etc. Governments like blanket bans, and Canada's bureaucracy is pretty awful.
I never said exotics vets didn't exist, I said, ". . .few veterinarians know enough about foxes (or any other exotic, really) to properly treat them." :P You would have a difficult time finding a vet comfortable enough with their experience to treat a fox.
Ask around your local chlinics if you have doubts.
I didn't touch on fur ranching very much because there are so few ranchers left around here. These days fur seems to have gone out of style, it's an expensive product and many people see it as an immoral practice now. Faux fur is also more practical, it comes in a larger variety of textures and colours, it is easier to keep, it lasts longer, it's more available and it's cheaper. When I was looking for fox fur farms in Canada last year I could only find four online, and all of them were on the east coast.
I agree with the ban in the context of keeping difficult pets out of the hands of irresponsible and ignorant pet owners. It's unfortunate for me that I won't have the chance at having the pet of my dreams, but I agree with the government's decision none the less. :( It was the financially ethical thing to do, anything else would be a waste of money among other resources.
are you kidding? there are a number of ways they could've used the exotic pet industry to boost the economy. Job creation through advertising for exotic vets and staff, just for starters. Job creation through regulation of exotic pets. And I don't think there's that small of a niche for exotic pets in BC; I think most people are probably either to lazy to do the research into it, or to fill out necessary paperwork. Which, you would hope, would weed out a lot of the irresponsible pet owners.
If anything it was the most ethical for the animals themselves. Look at the number of domestic animals we have going through rescue shelters. People just don't know how to make a real commitment, even otherwise responsible people. That's why we have animal shelters, marriage councellors, and broken families.
Well... real fur is back in style nowadays, believe it or not, and Faux Fur (as useful as it is) is a petrochem product which is way worse than ethical fur production. Maybe I will go ask a clinic... be interesting to see what they say...
: Foxxphyre March 11, 2011, 02:36:35 -07:00
Well... real fur is back in style nowadays, believe it or not, and Faux Fur (as useful as it is) is a petrochem product which is way worse than ethical fur production. Maybe I will go ask a clinic... be interesting to see what they say...
I wouldn't surprised, given it's durability I really doubt faux fur fabric is entirely biodegradable. I was speaking in reference to the rarity of fur ranches in this country, I assumed that was due to the low demand for fur clothing. Really though I don't know much about fashion trends. All I know is that faux fur clothes tend to be cheaper and more widely distributed than the real thing.
Please do ask around. I'm basing my thoughts regarding exotic vets entirely on the lack of available programs in universities concerning practice on rare or exotic species. :P
: EmoFox March 11, 2011, 02:07:15 -07:00
are you kidding? there are a number of ways they could've used the exotic pet industry to boost the economy. Job creation through advertising for exotic vets and staff, just for starters. Job creation through regulation of exotic pets. And I don't think there's that small of a niche for exotic pets in BC; I think most people are probably either to lazy to do the research into it, or to fill out necessary paperwork. Which, you would hope, would weed out a lot of the irresponsible pet owners.
If anything it was the most ethical for the animals themselves. Look at the number of domestic animals we have going through rescue shelters. People just don't know how to make a real commitment, even otherwise responsible people. That's why we have animal shelters, marriage councellors, and broken families.
I'm afraid I disagree, I believe there is a very small market niche concerning exotic pet ownership. However there's no way either of us could prove that without canvassing the entire province. XD
Back in the day when I first entered "legit" furrydom, I met two furs that had a pet Fennec. I think they got her from the states but I don't think they smuggled her. This must have been about ten years ago that they got her and I think she's passed away now. I think I still have a picture of her somewhere in my scrap books.
I think any pet, regardless of species, is only as stable and tame as the owner is committed and responsible. Pitbulls, etc included. I had pit bull breeder friends who's dogs were members of the family. Some jerk wad who decided that these people were "dangerous" chose to throw poisoned meat over the fence. As a result a wonderful family including their two children had to watch in horror as their beloved pets died a slow painful death.
I think anyone who is proven responsible and able to care for an exotic pet of any kind should be welcomed to help propogate a species, be it tiger, crocodile, or FOX. If I had a million dollars I would buy my way through the red tape and become the first Canadian Silver Fox breeder...
Alright everyone donate a dollar and you all get pet foxes :)
The issue with 'making sure they're responsible, etc' is that there's a massive difference between the responsibility nessesary to own say, a fish and a tiger. The former you basically just need to have the aquarium and the will to rember to feed it now and then, with the other you've got an 800 pound predator who can kill people, both can be managed but the consequences and requirements are vastly different.
exactly my point, hence all of the abandoned exotics after irresponsible people realize that owning an alligator is not like owning a rabbit. But there are people out there that can and would do it well.
I miss that Fennec, she was so adorable and playful.