Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley
Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.
The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm. In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.
On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.
Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."
Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...
When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.
And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.
In short, the points I would like to make are the following.
1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.
I myself can agree with this :thumbs:
Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.
iv seen places with communities with divided areas (only because of colleges and universities) who still get together every monday or friday, it would be nice to believe in our own community again and see those people set aside thier own differences with others.
Drama should not be out in the open during events, if you have a problem with someone please confront them at your own leisure.
If everyone can get along for at least 1 time a month and come together again as a proper and supporting community then maybe theres a chance trust will be gained by even the newcomers. I know i can be a bit bold myself, but i try and make good points, most of you just end up misunderstanding what i say or take it the wrong way, its not like i myself mean it that way.
My first furmeet was new years of 2007, i still have good memories of the time i came into this community, it was welcoming, happy, and all around energetic. but since time has passed that community started to crumble and even now its hard to believe we used to be friends to all, new or old.
im just going to say " What Happened guys?, Why are we all being this way to one another, we used to care for everyone and always had welcoming arms."
You realize you are both saying different things, right?
Well said, Ember - couldn't agree more. I personally have a lot of problems with the "drama" label in that I feel it's often used as some kind of instant, no-comebacks-allowed smackdown on any even-vaguely-unpleasant or even-vaguely-confrontational interpersonal stuff. You know what? Sometimes that stuff needs to be hashed out. Stigmatizing it just ensures things will fester rather than being dealt with.
I'm not wild about the Everyone Must Be Unconditionally Accepted mentality either, which I think breeds a lot of resentment between people. We choose who we hang out with in other contexts; why not here? Many furries are so used to having been outsiders that they seem to feel that rejecting anyone for any reason is some kind of betrayal of the sacred trust.
: Runix December 14, 2010, 09:09:30 -07:00
Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.
With respect, I think you need another read through, this is the opposite of what I am saying.
: Silvermink December 14, 2010, 10:53:25 -07:00
Well said, Ember - couldn't agree more. I personally have a lot of problems with the "drama" label in that I feel it's often used as some kind of instant, no-comebacks-allowed smackdown on any even-vaguely-unpleasant or even-vaguely-confrontational interpersonal stuff. You know what? Sometimes that stuff needs to be hashed out. Stigmatizing it just ensures things will fester rather than being dealt with.
I'm not wild about the Everyone Must Be Unconditionally Accepted mentality either, which I think breeds a lot of resentment between people. We choose who we hang out with in other contexts; why not here? Many furries are so used to having been outsiders that they seem to feel that rejecting anyone for any reason is some kind of betrayal of the sacred trust.
Thank you, Silvermink.
The topic of closed invite events has tended to raise a certain level of conflict before. While living at the old doghouse, we had any number of closed invite get togethers. These were met with a level of disdain from the community at large. "How dare they," they would ask, "How dare they be selective with the people they invite into their own home!"
While I will acknowledge that it feels terrible to be left out, the mentality behind a person chastising us for not letting any person that felt like it show up to our house was something I never really understood. It's more or less the reason no one knows were the new doghouse is now ;)
: Ember December 14, 2010, 11:20:26 -07:00Thank you, Silvermink.
The topic of closed invite events has tended to raise a certain level of conflict before. While living at the old doghouse, we had any number of closed invite get togethers. These were met with a level of disdain from the community at large. "How dare they," they would ask, "How dare they be selective with the people they invite into their own home!"
While I will acknowledge that it feels terrible to be left out, the mentality behind a person chastising us for not letting any person that felt like it show up to our house was something I never really understood. It's more or less the reason no one knows were the new doghouse is now ;)
Again, I completely agree. I think part of the problem is that often any event which involves some subset of the people in the Vancouver furry group is automatically seen as a "Vancouver furry group event". Sometimes people just want to get together with their friends in smaller groups, and there's not a damned thing wrong with that.
To suggest that people have to invite the entire group any time they want to socialize with others who also happen to be members of that group is ludicrous, and to pitch a fit because someone chooses to exercise control over who they invite into their home is just asinine.
I think part of the problem is that the all-inclusive-at-any-cost attitude has been tolerated for so long in furry groups and more general "geeky" groups that people have started to think it's acceptable, and it ain't.
I linked to this article from my LJ a few years back and it's still a really good read: Five Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html)
: Ember December 14, 2010, 11:13:52 -07:00
: Runix December 14, 2010, 09:09:30 -07:00
Ember makes a good point on how divided we have become, we used to share good times, but now its all but a forsaken memory, a fragment of the past, i myself still want to believe we can all set our differences aside with one another and grow a strong community that is accepting of anyone.
With respect, I think you need another read through, this is the opposite of what I am saying.
as im allowed to post my own opinions, this isnt a democracy.
: Ember December 14, 2010, 07:43:20 -07:00
Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley
Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.
The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm. In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.
On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.
Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."
Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...
When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.
And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.
In short, the points I would like to make are the following.
1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.
+1. Granted, large events being thrown every so often provide an easy way to get to know the community for newcomers... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, hell, I'd wager a good deal of us were introduced through some sort of group furry gathering. But, I also like small social groups (being able to hear oneself think, heaven forbid!) that I can curate and vet to my heart's desire.
Two points that I'd certainly raise:
1) We [I + random person] don't have to hang because we're furry (as the community "suggests" at times). Hell, I'd probably kill myself if that's all I was into.
2) (Which really is an extension of 1...) I am much more interested in talking about random stuff than talking about the newest piece of Zen/Adam Wan/[insert famous furry artist here] porn. :)
But there is no new Zen or Adam Wan art. :<
Well, Zen has been submitting a few things, but not a whole lot.
: Runix December 14, 2010, 02:39:32 -07:00
as im allowed to post my own opinions, this isnt a democracy.
Well, sure - but your post suggested you were agreeing with Ember, so I don't think it was unreasonable for him to point out that that wasn't what he was saying. He didn't say you weren't allowed to add your two cents.
I read everything you said there in your post, Ember. I understand and agree on practically everything that you are saying. I assume that it is safe to say that the majority of individuals who define themselves as 'furry' are/were unaccepted by those who are non-furry.
Maybe furries should be open about our social issues and express them along healthy terms? Mature individuals are probably only capable of having healthy discussions about such problems. However, I wonder how many furries are actually mature?
that all sounds fair and good, but what is anybody actually going to do about it?
Do about what?
: Cross December 14, 2010, 06:42:47 -07:00
that all sounds fair and good, but what is anybody actually going to do about it?
I think it requires people to adjust their attitudes, which I don't think is something that can be achieved through the actions of any one person. But I, for one, will happily discuss this until I'm blue in the face if it'll convince people that the no-drama and accept-everyone-unconditionally approaches are unhealthy.
: Purplexity December 14, 2010, 08:02:46 -07:00
Ember is right.
Hang out with the people you like, not the people you have to tolerate.
If that was the moral of the epic book of word on the first page then I agree.
Why hand out with people that irritate you if you don't have to? With that being said, you shouldn't immediately lump someone in the "has to tolerate" category right away. Give um a chance!
I'd have to agree. This has gone from a manageable size for a group to a quite large group over the last couple of years, and it's a group that has a massive range of ages and interests these days. That means different groups doing different things, no matter what you do.
If larger events can be organized again on a regular basis, that'd be ideal - open to everyone, a good chance to meet other people who might not cross your path at the get-togethers you're involved with already, and such. I'd like to see that, as I'm getting somewhat more social but still not getting involved with much outside of my one weekly gathering; it'd be great to start building some friendships with other people as well.
As for drama: it's going to happen in any community - there are people who won't see eye to eye, who do things that annoy others, etc. It seems to be especially ingrained in furry for some reason. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about that - and that means that some people might not be invited to some events, might not be acknowledged by some people, and so forth. Such is life, and any group has to accept that it will happen.
Seriously guys just read the damn post before replying in here. It's 500 words. For the love of god at least read the small summary on the bottom.
I BLINDLY AGREE TO WHATEVER THE COOL PERSON SAID!
: Tony Greyfox December 14, 2010, 09:35:08 -07:00
As for drama: it's going to happen in any community - there are people who won't see eye to eye, who do things that annoy others, etc. It seems to be especially ingrained in furry for some reason. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about that - and that means that some people might not be invited to some events, might not be acknowledged by some people, and so forth. Such is life, and any group has to accept that it will happen.
Exact opposite of what I was saying, again.
First this first i wana say, ember, you have talent with writing was fun to read.
for the subject, i will agree with you. i haven't been in the community long enough to know about all this stuff
but i agree. you need to tell people if there annoying, it helps to person to change them self as a person.
Furries will be furries. :gay:
: Karo December 14, 2010, 10:48:06 -07:00
First this first i wana say, ember, you have talent with writing was fun to read.
Thank you! Never underestimate the power of an uncaffeinated freshly woken fox brain :3
So Point number one of Ember's thesis is that when a community gets too large and complex, it naturally sections off into newer, smaller factions and groups. I think this might be how many sub-cultures and new styles are born, this splitting off from the whole.
But who is going to take the first step and host smaller meets? And who decides who goes?
And on the second point, from my own experience, Criticism/drama is a good thing. It weeds out bad behaviour. The ones who can't/won't change get forced out, and the ones who want to change should have a chance at redemption. (Because I didn't change until a few furs stepped in/sat me down and showed me what was/was not acceptable)
Secondly: There should be someone appointed to talk with newcomers about unacceptable concepts and behaviour.
: OryxFox December 15, 2010, 02:38:19 -07:00
But who is going to take the first step and host smaller meets? And who decides who goes?
I'm not sure the point is really to deliberately craft smaller groups, but rather not to resist the formation of them. I think one of the problems with creating smaller meets in the existing BCFurries framework is that then they're Official Events (TM) and people will expect them to be open. I think strife is inevitable and people shouldn't be stigmatized for discussing interpersonal issues, as I mentioned earlier - but equally, I don't think there's any reason to go looking for it, and it seems like it would be asking for trouble. I assume people organizing smaller events would do what's always been done and contact specific people backchannel. "Who goes" would be the host's or organizer's prerogative.
I'm assuming there that what you meant was that we'd have smaller meets that are announced openly here, so I apologize if I misconstrued that. I'm just not sure the existing meet framework will work for that in a way that doesn't result in grief all around.
: OryxFox December 15, 2010, 02:38:19 -07:00Secondly: There should be someone appointed to talk with newcomers about unacceptable concepts and behaviour.
I'm not sure I'd want to put all that responsibility on one person (as in, I could see someone maybe volunteering, but I think it would burn them out pretty quickly). Maybe a few people, though.
Drama is bad... period. I think No More Drama is both a good slogan and a good song (go mary j blige). That doesn't mean let people get away with anything, it means don't blow things out of proportion, be polite and respectful, and most of all private. EVERYONE doesn't need to know that so-n-so did such-and-such.
Mary J. Blige - No More Drama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em328ua_Lo8#)
In the end, we just need to show more respect (another great song)
Aretha Franklin - Respect (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSdFTVhFyyc#)
*nods*
: Maoi Neko December 15, 2010, 10:36:12 -07:00
Drama is bad... period. I think No More Drama is both a good slogan and a good song (go mary j blige). That doesn't mean let people get away with anything, it means don't blow things out of proportion, be polite and respectful, and most of all private. EVERYONE doesn't need to know that so-n-so did such-and-such.
I would agree with you if that was, in fact, how the word "drama" was used in the fandom, but it's not. It's become a handy tool that can be used to shut down and stigmatize any unpleasant interpersonal discussion or argument whatsoever.
I think maybe it started out as what you're describing, but it's become a bit of a monster. This is what happens when the socially-immature get hold of something like that, unfortunately. I think the word "drama" has become tainted enough that it either needs a serious image makeover or it needs to be tossed in the circular file.
I suppose people need to learn.
Read a Book (Dirty Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8#)
i suppose this thread is funny, it has points yes, but is anyone in the right place to actually judge others?
: Runix December 15, 2010, 09:19:03 -07:00
i suppose this thread is funny, it has points yes, but is anyone in the right place to actually judge others?
This is about choosing who you want to hang out with, and I think we're all in a position to do that.
I also choose not to live in a wonderland of unconditional acceptance of everyone, because constantly short-changing yourself and ignoring your own desires because you're worried about someone else's reaction - well, that way lies madness.
Yeah, I do prefer the mosaic ideal rather than the mixing pot. If everybody's the same... would be pretty boring. Plus.. I love drama! *brings out his popcorn*
: Ember December 14, 2010, 07:43:20 -07:00
Please forgive any errors as it's 6am as I write this and I still lack my morning coffee Smiley
Furry has on it the misguided expectation that all members both new and current were at some point the lower elements: The people who didn't fit in, the people that weren't quite right. In this expectation, the burden of blame for this behavior is removed by virtue of the amalgamated whole. When everyone around exhibits this same sort of behavior, then the need to fix it yourself dissipates. What is abnormal becomes the new norm.
The apparent core belief that we should all be friends and that people's differences should be understood and tolerated seems on the surface as a laudable goal. But what starts off as charity and inclusiveness inevitably leads to harm. In the end, even the best of intentions can cause damage.
On a small scale this system works quite well. When there is only a few of you, it is in your best interest to all get along, to all work together. As the community scales larger and larger this need dissipates. Operating as one large group is very ineffective. The natural order of things is for the increasingly large group to splinter themselves off into self contained subgroups.
Now, what method do humans use to separate each other? They point to certain traits as judging points for a person. People who lack these points are viewed as not part of the group. It can be something as simple as a group being based around gaming, or movies, or going out to dinner... or it can be something like "he doesn't have enough money, he lives too far away." The idea is that the group forms around some sort of judgment about "this is what we will be about."
Now, here's the harm part I was talking about...
When you have a group who's judging points are "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" you enter into this space wherein even the worst traits become acceptable. In furry, one is not allowed to judge one another openly. If one has a problem with another than they must keep it to themselves. They must never speak on it. If they do, they are causing 'drama.' When this mentality becomes mainstream, suddenly the internal societal pressure to behave is a certain way or to maintain certain traits dissipates. Suddenly a person can get away with anything unaware that there is even a problem. All the people that he is rubbing the wrong way keep it to themselves. In their intentions to be nice to this person, they fail to correct the behavior that cause their problem in the first place.
And so even the most sociologically rejected people view themselves as easily able to get along with furries, to the point that very soon they only have furries as friends, and have difficulties behaving them selves in an acceptable way around non-furries.
In short, the points I would like to make are the following.
1) Fragmentation of a community is natural and ideal- it is not something that can be or needs to be fought.
2) The "No Drama" mentality causes the most amount of personal as well as community damage.
Tl;dr.
BUT, taking upon up on your main points:
2) I completely agree. While Drama is not necessarily what is called for, warning an individual about unacceptable behavior is. With unacceptable behavior meaning "Deviant to society", and in our case, the furry community, we have a major dilemma.Unfortunately, what remains deviant is almost completely relative and what can be seen as negative by certain groups of people, may not for others. If these individuals don't know what they're doing is deviant, they need to be made aware, through use of drama, or by private means. which would bring us to the next point.
1) Fragmentation is not only natural and ideal, but necessary. With a community as large as the furry fandom, we need some degree of separation. We're not all going to get along, sooner we know this the sooner we can get passed it. while we can all still remain "furry" in the grand scheme of things, we can, and should choose who we associate ourselves with. We could open the can of worms and bring up the Zoo and Furry debate. I choose not to be associated with this particular group, ergo, I choose to avoid that subject. In General population we see fragmentation all the time.
High school Analogy time
In High-School We have: Jocks, Preps, Goth/emo, Nerds and countless other sub-groups.
as diverse as they are they all share on commonality, There all Students.
The students that don't get along separate themselves to AVOID drama.
While this doesn't support comradeship or unity, It still works for the most part.
Why should the furry community be any different? if we don't like something why should we keep our mouths shut?
Maybe I'm Jaded, Maybe I'm Immature.
My post isn't meant to start shit or even to be discussed,
Just my two cents.
: Runix December 15, 2010, 09:19:03 -07:00
i suppose this thread is funny, it has points yes, but is anyone in the right place to actually judge others?
Everybody judges. No such thing as not judging. We choose who to associate based on these judgments.
edit: removed "option" from Runix's quotebox.
: z00p December 16, 2010, 12:11:57 -07:00
Plus.. I love drama! *brings out his popcorn*
Oh, yeah?! Well, you're a big stupidhead!
;)
It's hard to deny the "car accident factor" of a good Internet argument. I feel like I shouldn't stare, but it's hard to look away!
: Soki December 16, 2010, 12:41:22 -07:00High school Analogy time
In High-School We have: Jocks, Preps, Goth/emo, Nerds and countless other sub-groups.
as diverse as they are they all share on commonality, There all Students.
The students that don't get along separate themselves to AVOID drama.
While this doesn't support comradeship or unity, It still works for the most part.
Hmm. Whether it supports "comradeship or unity" really depends on how you want to define those terms. I'd argue that it does support comradeship, because it's easier to feel comradeship with a smaller group of people who are more like you on average than a larger group of people who are less so.
Unity - again, depends on whether you want to talk about intra-group unity or inter-group unity. That kind of fragmentation leads to a fair bit of unity
within groups, but obviously it can also lead to an "us and them" attitude
between groups, and usually does in a high school context where most people are still finding their footing socially.
: ϝҵzzy gorge >:3 December 16, 2010, 04:21:14 -07:00
Everybody judges. No such thing as not judging. We choose who to associate based on these judgments.
Indeed.
There is not much else I can say to this, aside from "I agree". It is also hard to sound philosophical from a cellphone on such a topic.
But, from my own experience, I come from a small community. There are a lot more blurred lines when it comes to acceptance among different social groups, as there were less people to contend with. But, you knew immediatly who was ostracized. Their actions were not tolerated, unless they were willing to change. And if they showed up at a social place, there would be resentment shown to them, along with a tense kindness.
But, nothing direct would be said, to make things more non-confrontational for everyone.
At the few gatherings I have been to, I have seen leaders show some strength in telling people what and what not to do, but were quite lenient, much like I am used to seeing.
Does some of the "no drama" concept come from people being unable to re-enforce what is accepted and not accepted?
The "No drama" unwritten rule is the sole cause of why I attend very, very few furry events. I am not permitted by that 'rule' to tell someone I am not interested in contact with them, without skirting around the issue, nor am I allowed to show the kind of disdain I really honestly want to, for 90% of "furry" behaviors. Perhaps this is a fault of the age gap between myself and the next wave (27 may not seem like a huge gap against say, 18, but I remember having a rotary telephone, pre-internet life, and I'm heterosexually married among predominantly younger, bisexual or homosexual males who often ooze sexual frustration). I find a large portion of the community's behavior somewhat disturbing, and I will admit, I make a predjudiced choice not to associate with the individuals who are consistently unemployed, refusing to help themselves, and otherwise floating derelict in society or on a parent, or wallowing for months in self-imposed depression; The urge to berate them or otherwise chastise them in any fashion is too strong. Same goes for overt expressions of sexuality in a public venue, extreme state of dress (I wear stainless steel on my coat; My standards of extreme are higher than most, and yet, some furries at conventions manage to disturb even me by my standards), or other highly awkward behavior.
Call me chauvinistic, or bigoted, or really, any number of possible labels, but the spectrum of behavior I am willing to put up with is relatively narrow compared to the fandom's expectation of unconditional acceptance. I choose not to attend larger, uncontrolled events because I intensely dislike being cornered by something that I cannot speak out against, only avoid. I do not go to events where I expect that I will have to sequester myself into a corner for peace's sakes. If you see fit and find fault with the fragmentation of the community, do host large, all-inclusive events; There is absolutely nothing stopping you from trying. But it's actually quite rude to expect other people, to adapt their private gatherings for your sakes; Would you expect to attend a Protestant church, then request communion, or visit a classy club, then be upset and demanding when you're denied for not fitting dress-code?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I kinda like the cut of your jib
: Selkit December 17, 2010, 04:56:10 -07:00
I find a large portion of the community's behavior somewhat disturbing, and I will admit, I make a predjudiced choice not to associate with the individuals who are consistently unemployed, refusing to help themselves, and otherwise floating derelict in society or on a parent, or wallowing for months in self-imposed depression; The urge to berate them or otherwise chastise them in any fashion is too strong. Same goes for overt expressions of sexuality in a public venue.
Why do I see a trend here? There are too many furries without homes. Too many furries without job's. A lot of furries I know have low self-esteem (I could even say that I do too). So I totally agree with your post, Selkit. At the same time, I also agree that we are "prejudice" to those who don't have the priorities of sustainable living conditions. It is always nice to help those who are in need of some hosptiality; however, those individuals who are without homes should put as much effort as they can as possible to get back onto their feet. If that doesn't happen than those furries become dependent on other furs that do have jobs and homes.
Haha oh this thread.
This is fun to read.
Too lazy to read most of it, The gist of it was i think. Whaa some people wont invite us to meets. Isn't like furry just a hobby? Who cares lol. Go chill out with your friends and have fun, if people want cliques then so be it. They are in every form of society. Still though its funny how much drama there is in the furry community, delicious O0
Uhm... I wonder if you guys would like the opinion of a brand new fur?
A lot of what you guys are saying is very encouraging for me. The fact that you can have a conversation about fragmentation - and, to me, more importantly, your feelings about the direction your community is taking - is, in itself, very healthy.
I've noticed that a lot of the older furs... Well, really, a number of the furs that have been around for a few years, have this feeling that the furry fandom "isn't what it used to be". I want to address one tiny facet of this issue and say that you are still a warm and attractive community, no matter how much drama your fellow furs start. I haven't had the opportunity to meet with any furs on any kind of regular basis, having relied so far on Howloween, so I don't have a perfect or "whole" view or understanding of this new community... But honestly, I'm excited to be a part of it. Sure, I've seen the drama (Though I'm sure many of you would say I haven't seen nothin' yet), and I've seen the troublemakers cause trouble and make people uncomfortable. But this is just one part of who you are. I would hate to think that you guys have failed to see what you're doing for eachother. You've provided a community that genuinely cares for itself. No matter how much any of us want the spotlight. :3
I guess I should get back on track, though... Ultimately, I think I agree with both Ember and Silvermink. There's a place for drama, and, of course, for dealing with it... But I don't think this should be a factor in large meet vs. small meet. If we're truly a community, and we're truly in this together, we must make the time for settling our differences.
For the purposes of tl;dr...
MY POINT IS THAT THINGS MIGHT NOT BE AS BAD AS YOU THINK.
: Skitkat December 19, 2010, 04:44:38 -07:00
For the purposes of tl;dr...
MY POINT IS THAT THINGS MIGHT NOT BE AS BAD AS YOU THINK.
You're entirely right in saying that, and on a side note, welcome! I'd hope at some point in time I'll see you at an event; your point's well-reasoned and refreshingly optimistic. The fandom for some of us is not what it was when we entered it; I was relatively young when I first joined the fandom, and back then it was a somewhat different culture for me. Now I've found myself gravitating somewhat to more reserved activities or smaller meets, among others who are happy to do so, yet still keep in touch with the remainder of the community through the forums or other venues. Unity is a pretty admirable goal, and honestly, I would like to see a larger event occur where it can truly be all-inclusive. Unfortunately, I am not sure how it can happen, and drama-free? Start with lobotomizing the attendees. Drama strange as it sounds, is a healthy thing; It's when there's silent, sullen people around not saying anything, that you really have to worry about when the other shoe will drop.
: Daryll December 17, 2010, 08:56:20 -07:00Does some of the "no drama" concept come from people being unable to re-enforce what is accepted and not accepted?
Yeah, I think you're on to something there - a lot of this comes from people being unwilling to be confrontational. It takes a certain amount of strength to be able to say to somebody, "The way you're behaving isn't acceptable here".
It's easier to just make the excuse that you "shouldn't create drama".
At the same time, I think things have to be approached with a certain amount of tact, but that's not the same thing as just letting people go hog wild until suddenly they're being ostracized by everyone and aren't sure why. That's not fair to anyone.
Also, well-said, Selkit, and I can totally relate. I'm 31 and often feel like there's a bit of a gulf there that a lot of people don't appreciate - certainly one I didn't appreciate myself when I was, say, 20. I don't think I would've wanted to hang out with my 20-year-old self. I'm not trying to be ageist, and there are certainly cool younger people I'm happy to hang out with, but by and large my chosen social circle is very different demographically.
More than that, some of the antics that go on among furries of just about any age leave me kind of quietly horrified, and I don't like putting myself in those situations.
: Roffo December 18, 2010, 01:26:52 -07:00Why do I see a trend here? There are too many furries without homes. Too many furries without job's. A lot of furries I know have low self-esteem (I could even say that I do too). So I totally agree with your post, Selkit. At the same time, I also agree that we are "prejudice" to those who don't have the priorities of sustainable living conditions. It is always nice to help those who are in need of some hosptiality; however, those individuals who are without homes should put as much effort as they can as possible to get back onto their feet. If that doesn't happen than those furries become dependent on other furs that do have jobs and homes.
Yeah, I've seen a few too many people develop that kind of dependency, and some who even revel in the fact that they can be dependent on others (none of those were local, thank God). I think there's a line between being helpful and facilitating learned helplessness that can be a little bit hard to see sometimes.
At this point in my life I wouldn't be willing to open my home to someone else, but if I were I think I'd state from the outset that it was a limited-time arrangement, that I'd expect the person to respect me and my property and take steps toward helping themselves, and that if they seemed to be slipping into a "mooch" state I wouldn't feel guilty about asking them to leave.
: Skitkat December 19, 2010, 04:44:38 -07:00
I've noticed that a lot of the older furs... Well, really, a number of the furs that have been around for a few years, have this feeling that the furry fandom "isn't what it used to be".
Things are never "what they used to be". It's just a matter of whether a person chooses to roll with it, work to change it, or just bitch about it. ;)
I think some of the newer furs should take a look at this thread and actually read every post.
The general jist of this thread from my half asleep mind at 5AM is that if you don't like someone, don't feel obligated to hang out with them. Don't make a big deal out of it, just be polite and move on. This isn't like a job where you HAVE to get a long with everyone. Just be yourself, and whoever doesn't like you for that clearly isn't worth hanging out with anyway. It's better to tell someone you don't like spending time with them then lie to them and fake having a good time. Nothing good can come from that. It's also a respect thing. Personally, I would hate for someone to withhold that information from me.
Smaller meets are a good thing in my eye, and they seem to work perfectly. The only one who should be able to decide who goes to them is the host(ess) themselves. Don't be butthurt when you don't get invited to a small event of just friends.
All in all, I think this topic should be further discussed. I've added my two cents, now it's your turn. :-3
I've seen alot of skewed aspects of what people refer to "friends" as. If I've only met you a month ago, I'm not your friend. Our surface may show acknowledgements and support but you can get that shit everywhere. It seems everyone is so content to show huggles and cuddle that they forget to show actual respect. It makes me feel sick seeing someone being courteous to someone then as they turn away you can see the distain in written across there face. Makes me feel that everyone is trying to pull there own little game so they don't have to take a few bits of herrasment. Most furries say they want to be more like animals, well animals arn't nice. They fight and bicker on a daily baises. I've made some of my favorites friends through spilling blood and exchanging bruises. Constantly being nice damages you.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with being courteous.
Not showing your disdain for someone in a social gathering is polite. It leave the focus on the event at hand and not on the troubles between two people. It also doesn't kill the general mood by introducing negativity to the atmosphere, which can ruin things for the other attendees. If the host didn't want that person there, they would of not invited them. By making a guest feel unwelcome by not being courteous is showing a lack of respect to the host's wishes and to the host's other guests.
If it is an open invite event, one should expect that they may run in to someone they do not enjoy the presence of. As such, before they decide to attend the event they should make sure they are ready and can handle such an encounter in a mature manner without causing stress on the general attendance. Again, it isn't fair to the host nor the other guests not involved in bad blood to be affected by it and have its presence inflicted upon the gathering.
As for the original intent of the thread, fragmentation will occur, but fragmentation can also be bad if taken to the extreme. If groups never accept new people or show hostility to other groups, then it becomes bad. I have seen places where a large group fragmented and the members of the sub-groups began to carry a better-than-the-other type attitude. They would restrict people from being a part of both groups, and would treat members of the other group poorly. It really wrecks any large public gathering that anyone tried to attempt.
All in all, my opinion is everyone should be respectful and civil. This does not mean you have to like everyone. This just means that when at groups, at gatherings or on the message board that things are kept without unnecessary harsh words. If you must have it out with someone, take it private and deal with your issues there. Don't make it the rest of the communities problem.
I like the points people are making about the drama and fragmentation.
The whole "No drama" thing just brings up deeper, repressed arguments anyway. It just bottles up because you don't want to be judged, until the cap pops off and verbal ooze leaks out all over the place for everyone to see. It's like a relationship; Keeping all the anger and pet peeves locked up will just result in a hypothetical explosion of drama. If there's something bothering you, go right out and say it. I personally really detest the whole sexual aspect of the furry community. It's disgusting how open some furries are about what their favorite fetishes are and the things they like to do with their spare time and a "toy." I just don't understand why it's okay to act like a sexual deviant in the furry community and still be accepted, which I think is another great point that came up. I avoid a looot of furries (basically the whole community here, really) because It's easier to avoid certain ones I really don't like than have to tolerate them because it's the nice, "no drama" thing to do. If I flat out said "I don't like you. You're awkwardly sexual and disgusting. Please leave me alone." I suddenly become a meany poopy head and no one wants to talk to me anymore because I was being "rude". Maybe I'm way off the bat on what you guys are talking about because I only skimmed the thread, sorry, but that's just my opinion/reason on why I'm practically invisible.
tl;dr
I would rather avoid everyone than tolerate some because I find them too open/disgusting and annoying, however, I think drama is a good healthy thing to have in a community like this.
To the OP, I more or less agree though I tend to think that also having events where newer people are invited along are important for getting to know people and integrating with whatever subset of the local community fits best. Perhaps have it so that for every event for 12 people or whatever 4 or so can be 'random invites' so long as they're not explicitly excluded by those running the event?
i suppose this thread is funny, it has points yes, but is anyone in the right place to actually judge others?
Everyone's in the right place to judge people at all times if for no other reason then they will do it anyways. Every human being will 'judge' others as a normal part of their lives, this ranges from first impressions of someone you're meeting to where you sit on the bus/skytrain. Problems with judging tend to revolve around those who will stick too strongly to initial judgements based on fairly superficial informatmion instead of adjusting their view of a person based on information as it comes. How this applies to our situation is that if all the information you have seems to suggest that x or y individual isn't someone you want to be around then you should feel free to both say this and act upon it.
As for the original intent of the thread, fragmentation will occur, but fragmentation can also be bad if taken to the extreme. If groups never accept new people or show hostility to other groups, then it becomes bad. I have seen places where a large group fragmented and the members of the sub-groups began to carry a better-than-the-other type attitude. They would restrict people from being a part of both groups, and would treat members of the other group poorly. It really wrecks any large public gathering that anyone tried to attempt.
We should indeed endevor not to become a fragmentation grenade and indeed encouraging some degree of fluidity between the varying groups is a must for them to remain a group vs a particular set of friends ( a group to maintain itself will need new blood eventually ). Having places like this serve as a catch-all where from there they can be guided towards those they'd interact best with is ideal as I see it, particularily through tools like more open events.
Humanity is VERY niche oriented and seeing as we are all still people behind the fur, scales and feathers, we naturally like to go into our own little niches... gay furs, Metal head furs, COUNTLESS fetish groups. Being furry today is akin to saying "I am white/black" its just a single thing that you happen to be, being white doesn't mean you will get along with every white person and have the exact same interests, nor does being black.
Regarding the furs who have made drama labeling common place.... We are a niche group who PRIDES ourselves on NOT being the social norm.. so I guess not being able to handle any deeper thought/ emotion related situations without sinking to lol-cat level is out of many furs grasps so they just use the big rubber stamp and go "DRAMA *thunk* NEXT!" At its core its just a quick escape clause the lazy and socially inept furs in this fandom have developed from really having to think or understand the non caffeine and sugar high sides of human emotion IE: "if its not bubbly happy and glee filled, its drama"